India in England 2014 August 18, 2014

Former India player should work with Fletcher - BCCI joint-secretary

PTI
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BCCI joint-secretary Anurag Thakur believes a former India player working with Duncan Fletcher would improve communication between him and the team
BCCI joint-secretary Anurag Thakur believes a former India player working with Duncan Fletcher would improve communication between him and the team © AFP

Following India's defeat in England, BCCI joint-secretary Anurag Thakur has voiced concern over the performance of the team's support staff. He said he felt "some introspection" is needed.

"Not only as a BCCI official, but just like millions of fans, I am extremely disappointed with the Indian team's performance in this Test series against England," Thakur told PTI. "I think some introspection is needed in order to get back to winning ways."

Thakur felt the role of coach Duncan Fletcher had to be looked into, to see if some alternative options could be worked out. "Obviously, there are questions about the role of support staff after such a performance. If you ask me, I would ideally like an Indian support staff to work in tandem with Fletcher, which might help him to prepare better for the future tour," Thakur, who is also the president of Himachal Pradesh Cricket Association, suggested.

Asked to elaborate, Thakur explained, "What I feel is that a former cricketer of repute should be working with Mr Fletcher. It necessarily does not have to be a coaching role but some well-defined role. We have a lot of former greats and they have an idea about the psyche of the Indian players. The focus will be on those former players who have done well in overseas conditions.

"Since they have been there and done that, they can talk to the players, understand their technical problems. They can act as a bridge between the players and the chief coach. I believe a reputed former Indian player is necessary to improve the communication."

He agreed that a demoralising defeat, like the ones at Old Trafford and The Oval, will play on players' minds but a good show in the ODI series can change that. "The ODIs will start and right now what one needs is to lift the spirits of the players. A good performance in the limited overs is needed to boost the confidence," Thakur said. "Hopefully, the support staff will be able to lift the morale of the team."

Thakur was non-committal on whether MS Dhoni should continue as the captain of the team. "That is a call that selectors have to take and I can't individually comment on that," he said. "If there are any suggestions that I need to put forward on this issue, I will do it at the appropriate forum and not through the media."

Comments have now been closed for this article

  • myStraightTalk on August 21, 2014, 14:39 GMT

    Anurag Thakur along with the other BCCI member should be hold accountable for the decline of Test cricket by India. Having the same head coach and captain after many series loss in Test series does not happen in other country.

  • Anukalp_23 on August 19, 2014, 16:18 GMT

    @Cherai Thunder's: I may want to through some light on this matter. You said "a team which is so ordinary in all departments of game', lets compare the team of 2002 vs 2014 and bowlers did a fairly decent job let me remind you(don't compare spin quality in overseas conditions) and please note down my quote "Good Players don't Become Bad or Dreadful Overnight" Pujara : Even after this abysmal tour test average :: 49.26 http://www.espncricinfo.com/india/content/player/32540.html v/s Rahul Dravid : Test Average before 2002 :: 50.92 http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/556766.html Rahul dravid is a better fielder in slip cordon but comparing the standards they are equally good fielders. The team of 2002 showed courage and determination to play on tracks which doesn't suit them nor to their spin bowlers. Sachin is a prodigy to compare him with kohli is unfair. If you are not performing gud enough you will obviously look for support staff,yes to some extent its players fault.

  • Naikan on August 19, 2014, 15:28 GMT

    It is easy to blame Dhoni and much as it may seem to be his shortcoming in captaincy - we will never know for sure. We need to frankly look at the Indian team and see if they really had it in them to support a Captain's plan. What ever be the cut one gives, you cannot make glass sparkle like a diamond. There is a limit to which a coach and a captain can raise the inherent standard. The results are in line with current skill levels of the players who lack many of the skill sets required for test match play, having been bred on the shorter formats of cricket. Even the Indian bowling attack which seems to have done reasonably well is not truly penetrative and they suffered even more due to poor close in catching (which used to be good in the past and make a difference). The only reason I would change Dhoni from test captaincy is to get a fresh hand at it. However, he has one great quality- the mental resilience and that seems lacking in almost all others.

  • on August 19, 2014, 8:42 GMT

    every one here is blaming dhoni and fletcher for the results obtained but nobody seems to understand it is the batting failure that caused this results.nothung more can be done by dhoni when he captains a team which is so ordinary in all departments of game ,whether dhoni is a superman to singlehandedly produce result it is the responsibility on the whole team so everybody has to accept the blame not dhoni alone.his defensive tactics was because the players are not skilled enough to implement the strategy perfectly.in india he has got players who can play and bowl spin well so adopts attacking strategyand win matches for india unfortunately in foreign conditions it is opposite.clarke/ponting/strauss/smith etc flaterred in subcontinent and wins in bouncy conditions and you people still call him grat captains and when it comesto dhoni why are not following the same.

  • y4yoga on August 19, 2014, 8:23 GMT

    after many loses I seriously doubt when they will drop Duncan, He is not fi with Indian Team and also does not have the great Tactics, He simply watches the match as a spectator from the gallery, whether India wins or loses, no expression, Instead of Thinking for a new captain, should think for a new coach... that would be wise and will give a change,

  • hairyman on August 19, 2014, 7:23 GMT

    The BCCI needs to let the players work overseas for a season; Sachin, Dravid etc all did this and went on to be consistent around the world. If the BCCI won't let their players get overseas experience due to the concentration on T20 then they have to accept that this trend will continue. I would love to see Kholi, Dharwan et al coming to the UK to play and adapt to the conditions.

  • on August 19, 2014, 7:14 GMT

    Just shut this IPL and play test and one day cricket thats it and I request BCCI to go for the technology that is UDRS otherwise same story wrong decision in australia also we will get 5-0 white wash

  • on August 19, 2014, 7:06 GMT

    the overall negative and defensive mindset has to be reformed may be by the coach or by the former players like Mr. Shastri. The team needs to build confidence from their lords win and take it further.

  • milepost on August 19, 2014, 6:43 GMT

    The Indian individual performances were largely poor it isn't really the coaches fault. Dare I say it but have India gotten carried away with the IPL? There is certainly the illusion that it is popular outside India when it isn't at all but other boards still seem to value their test sides. Forget about TV money, who will want to watch India play anyway if they can't even contest a match. There's no shortage of talent but may be too much time is spent clearing the front leg trying to slog out of the park.

  • JAYESHQATAR on August 19, 2014, 5:42 GMT

    Replace the current coaching team with Kapil Dev as head coach Rahul and Kumple to assists. Obviously Dhoni to be handed over cap to a 'brilliant' & 'proactive' teamate (who?)

  • myStraightTalk on August 21, 2014, 14:39 GMT

    Anurag Thakur along with the other BCCI member should be hold accountable for the decline of Test cricket by India. Having the same head coach and captain after many series loss in Test series does not happen in other country.

  • Anukalp_23 on August 19, 2014, 16:18 GMT

    @Cherai Thunder's: I may want to through some light on this matter. You said "a team which is so ordinary in all departments of game', lets compare the team of 2002 vs 2014 and bowlers did a fairly decent job let me remind you(don't compare spin quality in overseas conditions) and please note down my quote "Good Players don't Become Bad or Dreadful Overnight" Pujara : Even after this abysmal tour test average :: 49.26 http://www.espncricinfo.com/india/content/player/32540.html v/s Rahul Dravid : Test Average before 2002 :: 50.92 http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/556766.html Rahul dravid is a better fielder in slip cordon but comparing the standards they are equally good fielders. The team of 2002 showed courage and determination to play on tracks which doesn't suit them nor to their spin bowlers. Sachin is a prodigy to compare him with kohli is unfair. If you are not performing gud enough you will obviously look for support staff,yes to some extent its players fault.

  • Naikan on August 19, 2014, 15:28 GMT

    It is easy to blame Dhoni and much as it may seem to be his shortcoming in captaincy - we will never know for sure. We need to frankly look at the Indian team and see if they really had it in them to support a Captain's plan. What ever be the cut one gives, you cannot make glass sparkle like a diamond. There is a limit to which a coach and a captain can raise the inherent standard. The results are in line with current skill levels of the players who lack many of the skill sets required for test match play, having been bred on the shorter formats of cricket. Even the Indian bowling attack which seems to have done reasonably well is not truly penetrative and they suffered even more due to poor close in catching (which used to be good in the past and make a difference). The only reason I would change Dhoni from test captaincy is to get a fresh hand at it. However, he has one great quality- the mental resilience and that seems lacking in almost all others.

  • on August 19, 2014, 8:42 GMT

    every one here is blaming dhoni and fletcher for the results obtained but nobody seems to understand it is the batting failure that caused this results.nothung more can be done by dhoni when he captains a team which is so ordinary in all departments of game ,whether dhoni is a superman to singlehandedly produce result it is the responsibility on the whole team so everybody has to accept the blame not dhoni alone.his defensive tactics was because the players are not skilled enough to implement the strategy perfectly.in india he has got players who can play and bowl spin well so adopts attacking strategyand win matches for india unfortunately in foreign conditions it is opposite.clarke/ponting/strauss/smith etc flaterred in subcontinent and wins in bouncy conditions and you people still call him grat captains and when it comesto dhoni why are not following the same.

  • y4yoga on August 19, 2014, 8:23 GMT

    after many loses I seriously doubt when they will drop Duncan, He is not fi with Indian Team and also does not have the great Tactics, He simply watches the match as a spectator from the gallery, whether India wins or loses, no expression, Instead of Thinking for a new captain, should think for a new coach... that would be wise and will give a change,

  • hairyman on August 19, 2014, 7:23 GMT

    The BCCI needs to let the players work overseas for a season; Sachin, Dravid etc all did this and went on to be consistent around the world. If the BCCI won't let their players get overseas experience due to the concentration on T20 then they have to accept that this trend will continue. I would love to see Kholi, Dharwan et al coming to the UK to play and adapt to the conditions.

  • on August 19, 2014, 7:14 GMT

    Just shut this IPL and play test and one day cricket thats it and I request BCCI to go for the technology that is UDRS otherwise same story wrong decision in australia also we will get 5-0 white wash

  • on August 19, 2014, 7:06 GMT

    the overall negative and defensive mindset has to be reformed may be by the coach or by the former players like Mr. Shastri. The team needs to build confidence from their lords win and take it further.

  • milepost on August 19, 2014, 6:43 GMT

    The Indian individual performances were largely poor it isn't really the coaches fault. Dare I say it but have India gotten carried away with the IPL? There is certainly the illusion that it is popular outside India when it isn't at all but other boards still seem to value their test sides. Forget about TV money, who will want to watch India play anyway if they can't even contest a match. There's no shortage of talent but may be too much time is spent clearing the front leg trying to slog out of the park.

  • JAYESHQATAR on August 19, 2014, 5:42 GMT

    Replace the current coaching team with Kapil Dev as head coach Rahul and Kumple to assists. Obviously Dhoni to be handed over cap to a 'brilliant' & 'proactive' teamate (who?)

  • SANATP22 on August 19, 2014, 5:13 GMT

    Ajinkya Rahane Ambati Rayudu Bhuvneshwar Kumar Dhawal Kulkarni Karan Sharma Mohammed Shami Mohit Sharma MS Dhoni (c)(wk) R Ashwin Ravindra Jadeja Rohit Sharma Sanju Samson (wk) Shikhar Dhawan Stuart Binny Suresh Raina Umesh Yadav Virat Kohli

  • Cric__Dude on August 19, 2014, 5:06 GMT

    I am not OK with Indian coaches. Reason being, test cricket needs aggressive tacticians. Except Kapil, Kumble and Sourav, I do not see many like that. But if any of them comes in as head coach, I doubt their relation with current players. One harsh truth and they will be treated as egoistic. Better to bring quality coaches who are both aggressive and brilliant tacticians. Wasim Akram or Walsh should come in as bowling coach for sure. Indian pace had no battery for decades. Time to change that. Paddy Upton/Warne/Strauss/Paul Collingwood/Gilchrist should come in as head coach. BCCI has money. Why not get them?

    Indian test cricket needs a rebuild. The same 11 playing all 3 formats is ridiculous. Dhoni should quit tests altogether. I know he is a big man to replace but good things will follow. He needs to play limited overs for few more years and look after his body. Graeme Smith when handed captaincy was full of questions, but the result? India needs to take some bold decisions.

  • on August 19, 2014, 5:06 GMT

    All Dhoni Sackers. You guys got to understand that a Captain can't do much when the whole team is not doing good. Sack the Coach. It is after Gary, India has taken a Decline. Not because of Dhoni. Only a Coach has to motivate the Team and Mould them into shape. That is what Gary Did. A Captain is the Leader On-the-field. And the Real King is the Coach. Only the King has to Plan and make Decision out of his team. All the Senior Players who serve only criticism to the Current Players, why can't they step up and do train the Indian Team to Victory. They all can't do even a Bit other than criticising. Because they themselves have never proved any consistency during their career. They were criticised more worse than what Dhoni was legitimate for. Don't Betray your Players, when they are not in Best of their times. Support them. Even if you don't support, don't Criticise them. That may raise question to themselves on their talents. True Cricket Fans will Support their Players in Tough Times.

  • on August 19, 2014, 4:54 GMT

    Fletcher will be a good batting coach....we should retain his services that way. we should have a former player like Ganguly or Shastri who have good cricketing brains and understand the Indian boys to be the lead coach. there has to be someone who can instill pride of playing for India in the team.

  • Makkumatr on August 19, 2014, 4:51 GMT

    India has never placed a premium on Test cricket. Neither Fletcher nor Dhoni are too worried about Test results, just like the BCCI. All out for 100 or 50 doesn't matter to the players or the Board. The fans too need to accept this reality. The Indian cricket world is all focused on T20s and IPL.

  • Cric__Dude on August 19, 2014, 4:39 GMT

    BCCI is killing Indian test cricket. Officials listening? We are dedicated Test cricket fans. We do not love IPL even a cent. With IPL, you are just making money. There is no country name in it. We love cricket between nations, not franchises. Please save test cricket. Get rid of your money minded policies.

  • TEROSHAN on August 19, 2014, 4:33 GMT

    Indians are CHAMP !!! Only In India Not in Rest of the world!!! Yes They have won the matches In NZ AUS ENG SA but if you compare it with PAK or SL they are way below the far.. The Money Available with them but Planing is Not there?? Hope N Modi will bring the planing for India in Next 05 Years But for BCCI who will be it ??? Wonder ? India can not Maintain the 50 Man Squad for TEST And ODI..

  • on August 19, 2014, 4:32 GMT

    please change Duncan Fletcher and Dhoni as they could not create any win overseas for India. Record book empty for both of them overseas. Please look for a better coach inside...

  • rappedonthepads on August 19, 2014, 4:30 GMT

    If "sack the coach" is the best solution that we have arrived at, then I can already predict the score line for the upcoming series in Aus. Small town boys, backgrounds are all excuses. Some of our boys have been found out on technique, some on sheer will to stick it out. Technique can be worked upon, but whats beneath the shirt is hard to change. Drop some of the big names for a couple of series, see if there is enough hunger to want to do well overseas. Sack the coach by all means, but doing just that is hiding all our problems behind a wall.

  • on August 19, 2014, 4:12 GMT

    I do not agree with this statement from BCCI. These guys always organize one days and t20 matches and our current Indian team is finding it hard to adapt. Indian team is the only team that plays all through the year without any rest as BCCI needs to earn. Cmon coach is really good we really need to see the full picture.

  • glen1 on August 19, 2014, 2:45 GMT

    @Capt Meanster: good you are buying into the demographic issues that are afflicting Indian cricket. It is confusing enough to speak and understand several Indian languages, and then you add a coach who hardly looks like a cricket player, you have a prescription for disaster. I am suggesting that it should be a one-two punch; a very ambitious (unfulfilled at that) guy like Kevin Peterson as head coach and a pleasant guy like Laxman as assistant coach; as not much came of Dravid's tidbits.

  • on August 19, 2014, 2:31 GMT

    Duncan Fletcher is a good coach and take the player from basic to the next level, he already done that.If you look at his carrier as a coach , the same picture out there. Does he turn the team into championship team? Answer will be big NO. Take the example of England itself Andy Flower made them championship team but Fletcher did the initial steps. Same thing applicable to Indian team also they need another coach to reach the peak.

  • on August 19, 2014, 2:15 GMT

    Fletcher is over. Take him out, no evidence of improving. Dhoni is always Gold. He should lead the team.

  • Cpt.Meanster on August 19, 2014, 1:35 GMT

    I think Fletcher has to GO ! Period. He isn't an Indian in that, he simply doesn't understand the emotional intricacies of being India coach. We need a guy who can speak the language of the players and that means going beyond speaking Hindi or Urdu. It should be a language spoken from the heart, one to one, eye to eye and making the players feel like they are playing for a family. Right now, Fletcher is a machine and he is preaching mechanical ways to a bunch of boys who have come from the middle and lower class families. In other words, these kids are from the smaller towns and villages. Even Virat Kohli and Ishant Sharma, two Delhi boys are from ordinary backgrounds. Indian cricket has always been that way which is why Greg Chappell once eloquently put it "the toughest job in world cricket". It's not just the expectation of the nation and a billion followers, but the publicity, the media attention which is nerve racking for the Indian cricket team.

  • on August 19, 2014, 0:26 GMT

    what a coach can do when players have no love the country. One player back up other player, other player supports another and this trend goes on forever. Can't they play in swinger or out swinger? even they are getting out for Jordan who is just like Binny. instead of taking sr.players if chance given to new players they might earned some good money. How many years they play like this. I am seeing since Graham Dilley bowling to India in 1980's. At that time no technology. Now u have everything. These players should be given one more chance only for overseas tour. otherwise they score heavily at home series and the story continues when they go abroad. go to 1971 India tour of WI how indian batsmen played when no technology and fast pitches. Lastly indian team consists of recommendation players like jadeja, binny, Vijay(of course he played well in first 2 tests). Don't we have any good players in 130 crore population? cant BCCI prepare fast pitches for practice? shame to the nation

  • supercoolfan on August 18, 2014, 23:55 GMT

    BCCI - Wake up! The whole nation is requesting BCCI to act. Get rid of Fletcher! India has given him enough chances to prove his impact on the team. He is no good. Coaches make players. Fletcher has failed to make a cohesive and spirited team as displayed time and time again!

  • Kapil_Choudhary on August 18, 2014, 22:57 GMT

    When there is a repeated abject surrender like we have seen, the fingers have to be pointed towards the captain and the support staff. This is not a case of a couple of players failing who can be replaced - the entire squad failed collectively and thus either India has a HUGE dearth of talent (considering these are our best players) OR the selectors are doing a horrible job OR the captain/support staff are not creating an environment where the team can prosper. Based on the fact that a no. of these players have seen great success in the past, I tend to think the fault lies with the support staff. Dhoni will stay as captain because there are no clear alternatives (Virat himself had a disaster series), and he was after all our best batsman on the tour and has a great captaincy record at least in ODIs and T20s. But there are TONS of replacements for Fletcher and company around the world - including a host of recently retired Indian greats. Fletcher needs to go, period

  • on August 18, 2014, 22:37 GMT

    BCCI should spend money and create facilities to simulate England, Australia and SA. Let the players spend ample time in these facilities before the tour. I think players are so busy with their cricketing and non-cricketing schedule, that they are not spending time to prepare for these trips. They have just given up..

  • cricketIsGreat on August 18, 2014, 22:23 GMT

    Are you kidding me ? "former players who have done well in overseas conditions" answer is "NONE" ..

  • msnsrinivas on August 18, 2014, 22:12 GMT

    Duncan Fletcher had enough chances with both the seniors and the current crop of players. They keep telling us that he is very good at dissecting batting techniques but nothing of that has been on evidence. Just have a look at Kohli, Dhawan and Pujara. As a desperate, helpless and often embarrassed fan, I just wonder what makes Fletcher so indispensable.

  • cric_usa on August 18, 2014, 21:13 GMT

    Fletcher should be sacked immediately, follow with removal of Dhoni from test captaincy. Not sure who will replace Dhoni but who ever it is, result cannot be worse.

  • kc69 on August 18, 2014, 20:41 GMT

    Fun part is BCCI will never admit its failures.Lets look at IPL for the sake of batsmen benefit IPL was played on flat tracks where likes of Dale Steyn was hammered.Why not create some bouncy tracks atleast in some places like Dharmshala and when Entire world comes and plays in Indian conditions why not allow Indian youngsters play in leagues of England, Aus or SA.Soon you might be surprised to see teams like Eng, Aus and SA beating India even on home surfaces thanks to IPL and Sporting wickets.

  • gbz22 on August 18, 2014, 19:54 GMT

    Get rid of fletcher, please. He's been a complete disaster since taking over from kirsten. The 8-0 in 2011 was his first gift to indian fans. But he's untouchable. I don't know how it works, but how this man manages to keep his job is inexplicable. He's aboslutely god-awful. Yet, all the attention is on Dhoni. He was the only one who put up any sort of a fight. I can't understand. What more does Fletcher have to do to get fired?

  • ToTellUTheTruth on August 18, 2014, 19:08 GMT

    hmph....I thought that the great Rahul Dravid was Indian team's batting consultant during this series. No? If he was, thanks for the results RD.

  • jpotter321 on August 18, 2014, 18:59 GMT

    Ridiculous. Why not get rid of Fletcher and hire a coach that CAN communicate directly with players? Why are BCCI protecting Fletcher so much

  • on August 18, 2014, 18:53 GMT

    Yes its a good idea ...bcci should start sending players to play county cricket which is missing right now...n instead of flat pictches they should start making sporting pitches....

  • glen1 on August 18, 2014, 18:50 GMT

    There was lot of talk about Rahul Dravid having just done that; but it turns out he was there during the good times and not when needed. At the end of the day, boys from Meerut and Muzzafarnager need coaches from Bombay and Bangalore, not London and Sydney; this is not rocket science. Another aspect, you cannot recognize short form skill sets of these boys and then feed them to the test wolves. Stop playing five test series and stick to two-three test series.

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  • glen1 on August 18, 2014, 18:50 GMT

    There was lot of talk about Rahul Dravid having just done that; but it turns out he was there during the good times and not when needed. At the end of the day, boys from Meerut and Muzzafarnager need coaches from Bombay and Bangalore, not London and Sydney; this is not rocket science. Another aspect, you cannot recognize short form skill sets of these boys and then feed them to the test wolves. Stop playing five test series and stick to two-three test series.

  • on August 18, 2014, 18:53 GMT

    Yes its a good idea ...bcci should start sending players to play county cricket which is missing right now...n instead of flat pictches they should start making sporting pitches....

  • jpotter321 on August 18, 2014, 18:59 GMT

    Ridiculous. Why not get rid of Fletcher and hire a coach that CAN communicate directly with players? Why are BCCI protecting Fletcher so much

  • ToTellUTheTruth on August 18, 2014, 19:08 GMT

    hmph....I thought that the great Rahul Dravid was Indian team's batting consultant during this series. No? If he was, thanks for the results RD.

  • gbz22 on August 18, 2014, 19:54 GMT

    Get rid of fletcher, please. He's been a complete disaster since taking over from kirsten. The 8-0 in 2011 was his first gift to indian fans. But he's untouchable. I don't know how it works, but how this man manages to keep his job is inexplicable. He's aboslutely god-awful. Yet, all the attention is on Dhoni. He was the only one who put up any sort of a fight. I can't understand. What more does Fletcher have to do to get fired?

  • kc69 on August 18, 2014, 20:41 GMT

    Fun part is BCCI will never admit its failures.Lets look at IPL for the sake of batsmen benefit IPL was played on flat tracks where likes of Dale Steyn was hammered.Why not create some bouncy tracks atleast in some places like Dharmshala and when Entire world comes and plays in Indian conditions why not allow Indian youngsters play in leagues of England, Aus or SA.Soon you might be surprised to see teams like Eng, Aus and SA beating India even on home surfaces thanks to IPL and Sporting wickets.

  • cric_usa on August 18, 2014, 21:13 GMT

    Fletcher should be sacked immediately, follow with removal of Dhoni from test captaincy. Not sure who will replace Dhoni but who ever it is, result cannot be worse.

  • msnsrinivas on August 18, 2014, 22:12 GMT

    Duncan Fletcher had enough chances with both the seniors and the current crop of players. They keep telling us that he is very good at dissecting batting techniques but nothing of that has been on evidence. Just have a look at Kohli, Dhawan and Pujara. As a desperate, helpless and often embarrassed fan, I just wonder what makes Fletcher so indispensable.

  • cricketIsGreat on August 18, 2014, 22:23 GMT

    Are you kidding me ? "former players who have done well in overseas conditions" answer is "NONE" ..

  • on August 18, 2014, 22:37 GMT

    BCCI should spend money and create facilities to simulate England, Australia and SA. Let the players spend ample time in these facilities before the tour. I think players are so busy with their cricketing and non-cricketing schedule, that they are not spending time to prepare for these trips. They have just given up..