India v England, 2nd ODI, Kochi January 15, 2013

Familiar problems for England to face

After the joy of securing the first ODI, England were brought back down earth with a bump and given a harsh reminder of the challenges in India
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Like fog and drizzle and queues and football hooliganism, England's performance in the second match of this series provided a startling reminder of the bad old days of English cricket.

All the familiar failings were there: a collapse against spin; 14 unused overs; a bowling display that leaked 108 runs from the final 10 overs and some timid batting that saw 19 runs scored in 10 overs in mid-innings. Had a miners' strike broken out in the Powerplay it would have been perfectly fitting. No doubt the rubbish in the England dressing room is yet to be collected.

But, on the basis that sides really do learn more in defeat than victory and England are looking to build towards future events, then they may reflect on this match as a valuable experience. While it is too early to reach conclusions over the ODI future of many of these players - we are not even halfway through this series, after all - it is becoming clearer who might, and who might not, be of use to England in the Champions Trophy and beyond.

Fitness permitting, England's attack for the Champions Trophy will contain James Anderson, Stuart Broad, Graeme Swann and Steven Finn in a first choice team. So this series can be used, in part at least, to decide on the identity of the fifth member of the attack.

The answers, to date, may prove a little inconvenient. In both the Champions Trophy, in the UK, and the World Cup, in Australia and New Zealand, a fourth seamer may be of more use than a second spinner. And, if England are to play two spinners, they would surely prefer the second to be a left-armer to offer variety to Swann's offspin.

However, in this series at least, England's most reliable bowler has been the offspinner James Tredwell. His 20 overs have cost only 4.60 apiece and he has demonstrated a calm temperament and level of controlled skill that should translate well to any surface or situation.

Samit Patel might prove even more attractive for England. After enjoying an excellent game with the bat in the first ODI, he enjoyed a decent game with the ball in the second. His left-arm spin would be a concern going into a big game on a flat pitch but his all-round ability may yet balance the England side better than any other options.

It is worth noting, however, that while England's three spinners - Patel, Tredwell and Joe Root - delivered 22 overs and took one wicket at a cost of just 96 runs, India' s bowled 18 overs and claimed 5 for 70. Such statistics are unlikely to be replicated in England or Wales.

England's seamers were less convincing. While each of them impressed at times, they were plundered horribly in the dying overs and delivered only one yorker in the entire India innings. Chris Woakes, given an opportunity in place of the injured Tim Bresnan, looked tight initially but lacked answers when India's batsmen went on the attack. In first-class cricket his main weapon is swing but sans that, and lacking the pace to force the batsmen on to the back foot, he is going to have to learn supreme levels of control to prosper at this level. The long full tosses he delivered when searching for the yorker were a concern.

Jade Dernbach conceded 20 from his final over and, like Woakes, was punished for bowling a good length in the dying overs. Until the death, however, he had shown glimpses of the talent that keeps the selectors persisting with him. His variations briefly made a one-day batsman as accomplished as MS Dhoni - and few are more accomplished in this format - appear foolish and he produced a beauty to dismiss Gautam Gambhir.

Like Woakes, Bresnan and Steven Finn, though, he - and England's bowling coach - would do well to work on a yorker than can be relied upon under pressure. If a bowler can consistently produce a yorker, their variations will prove all the more valuable. The game may have developed but it is worth recalling how few slower balls the likes of Joel Garner or Mike Procter delivered. If the yorker is good enough, the batsman will always be taking a huge risk in attacking it. It's an area in which England must improve.

Let us not worry about Kevin Pietersen, Alastair Cook, Ian Bell, Eoin Morgan and Finn. They have shown what they can do and they are in this side for the long haul. Those who suggested after the win in Rajkot that Jonathan Trott may prove superfluous need to think again, though. Trott is sure to bat at No. 3 in the Champions Trophy and might well have provided the calm head and steady accumulation to have kept England in the hunt. Sometimes a players' value is more apparent in their absence.

Concerns about Craig Kieswetter should be far more pressing. His innings in this game was unusually poor: having laboured over 19 deliveries for his first run, he managed 17 more from his next 19 before tamely pushing one to midwicket. Twenty-nine of his 42 deliveries had been scoreless.

It is this one-dimensional element to his batting that remains so damaging. While he can, like many talented young biffers, hit a poor ball a long way, his difficulty in rotating the strike is allowing the opposition to build pressure and failing to provide a release. His keeping has improved but, after 45 ODIs, he is struggling to convince in either department. It is hard to deny that stronger options exist.

It is worth keeping this result in perspective, too. Before Rajkot England had not won one of their last 13 ODIs against India in India and have now won only two of their last 20. There were bound to be days like this on this tour. Few will recall them if England go on to win the Champions Trophy in June.

George Dobell is a senior correspondent at ESPNcricinfo

Comments have now been closed for this article

  • POSTED BY jmcilhinney on | January 16, 2013, 3:02 GMT

    England are on top of the ODI rankings so they must have done a few things right, but consistency has been a real problem. Until the recent SA series, England's Test bowling had been good for a long time and the losses they suffered were generally as a result of the batting. In ODIs, the bowling is much more of a concern. If the bowlers have a plan then it must be one that has failed many times before, so time for a new one I think. Unlike the first game, the batting here was poor too. That's not a combination that will win you too many games.

  • POSTED BY jackiethepen on | January 15, 2013, 16:15 GMT

    I don't think England were ever in the hunt although they could have saved face with a good chase. Dhoni destroyed their chances by upping his game on a mediocre pitch. His helicopter shots were sensational. India were setting their sights on 240 - what they perceived as a good score. By getting over 280 we were never going to catch them. Scoreboard pressure would unhinge our best hopes. If we had won the toss and one of our batsman like KP had achieved the near impossible and racked up a similar innings, then we might have won. The latter could still happen. You would have to hope that out of 5 games, KP would feature in one of them. Three to go.

  • POSTED BY cric_J on | January 18, 2013, 8:15 GMT

    The English people are overreacting after their team's heavy defeat in the second ODI pretty much like they did after the loss in the first test in Ahmedabad.We all know how that one panned out ! So please show some faith in the English team. And although I do think India will win the third ODI in Ranchi by a good margin,England may have a better chance to win in Mohali or Dharamsala than in Ranchi.

  • POSTED BY garrym on | January 18, 2013, 6:06 GMT

    The "one dimensional" aspect of Kieswetter's batting has been highlighted many times and he should go. He has had plenty of chances but consistently uses a huge number of balls with no score. His keeping is only average as well. Bairstow is the most likely replacement if Prior is to remain a Test player only.

  • POSTED BY balajik1968 on | January 18, 2013, 1:27 GMT

    There is a strong case for England to play Prior in the LOI squad. A good keeper, an aggressive batsman, and a scrapper. The idea of having someone just biff the ball does'nt work. Look at most of the top ODI batsmen, they keep working the ball around, before really hitting out. Kieswetter does not seem able to do that. All he seems to do is biff. England should seriously look at Prior as a one day player. They have a good top order in Cook, Bell, Trott and Pietersen. Samit Patel also seems to be fitting in nicely. What they need now is Prior,who brings in 2 skills batting and keeping. Do not waste time looking for the next Gilchrist. Gilly was a one off. I am sure he would not have been picked if his glove-work was poor.

  • POSTED BY JG2704 on | January 17, 2013, 12:56 GMT

    @Nutcutlet -Could they not even try a spin option at the death. It may well go tits up but it's going tits up more often than not anyway so what are we risking? Surely this is a series where we could/should be trying different options.I don't have the stats but it seems that nearly every time our last few overs go for big runs

  • POSTED BY JG2704 on | January 17, 2013, 12:56 GMT

    @ himanshu.team -Pres you mean Oz and SA otherwise your comms make no sense.Eng have had a good year and re Oz - we beat them 4-0 7 or 8 months or so ago so and also beat Pak in UAE 4-0 so we have had the results to back up the ranking.The problem is that - unlike SA in particular - we don't have the depth to be able to rest players and still likely retain the top spot(which we've been dethroned of already) So yes ,we might not be the best ODI side but have got the results to get us there

    @Venkat_Super_11 -It's the way the press work.Must admit some of the pieces on here go overboard one way or the other.Same with posters. I personally try to be equally critical of England's flaws when we win as when we are defeated

  • POSTED BY himanshu.team on | January 17, 2013, 5:23 GMT

    England may be on top of the ODI rankings, but i never felt like they deserve to be there. It was more a matter of luck for them as England and Australia have both been better sides and even India was better till last year. Right now India is at its most vulnerable form. They just don't look like a side that can win against any good international side. Even then the victory that came against India in Rajkot was far from convincing. They should have thrashed India by a much bigger margin. Even in Kochi, they had the openers out cheaply within first 5 overs. They then got Kohli and Yuvi in relatively quick succession. From that point to concede 285 was not good at all. The batting was tested for the first time in the series against seam and spin. It collapsed miserably. They have to dig deep inside and find answers to these problems. They may still beat India in coming matches but, given the way India has performed recently, that would not be much to brag about.

  • POSTED BY Venkat_Super_11 on | January 17, 2013, 3:55 GMT

    I am an Indian but a good cricket fan in general. I can't believe how critics wake up to demoralize a team as soon as they lose a game. Only few weeks back, England rewrote the record in sub-continent, defeating India in its own soil and that too, comprehensively. And they also drew the T-20 series. Lastly, they even demonstrated their batting skills and bowling skills in the first ODI and won India quite comfortably. But as soon as they lost a game,I don't understand how everybody in the name of editors and authors, start criticizing a good team. Do they expect a team to win all games and not lose even a single game? Australia had lost to worthless teams like Zimbabwe, Pakistan had lost to Ireland, SA had lost to Bangladesh. Does it mean that they are not good performers?Just because you have the liberty to write an article, it doesn't mean that you have to do resort to such distasteful comments. England has proved again and again that they are one of the top best teams in the world.

  • POSTED BY Harmony111 on | January 16, 2013, 20:11 GMT

    @Bilal Shah: Regarding your comment for Kohli being found out by QUALITY bowling, do you not agree that Gul and Ajmal are quality bowlers too? Kohli faced them in BD as well as in WT20. Pls check how many he scored vs them - 183 & 70+.

    Turning your own logic around, were Gul & Ajmal not found out by Kohli alone in these 2 matches? We all saw how Viru smacked Gul for 4s in WC SF. Ajmal was mauled for 18 runs by Hussey in WT20 in WI. So who got found out here huh?

    Kohli simply had 3 bad games vs Pak. Junaid & Irfan etc are talented and promising but don't stretch how good they are or will be.

    I am sometimes amazed at the highly selective reasoning of some Pak fans here. All they now talk off is Kohli's failure cos he was their #1 threat and had a bad patch. Some Pak fans talk of Shoaib's yorker to SRT as proof of SRTs struggle vs fast bowling yet they hardly ever bring up the real hiding SRT gave to Shoaib, Wasim & Waqar in WC 03.

    And then you call us Ind fans as rude....huh.

  • POSTED BY jmcilhinney on | January 16, 2013, 3:02 GMT

    England are on top of the ODI rankings so they must have done a few things right, but consistency has been a real problem. Until the recent SA series, England's Test bowling had been good for a long time and the losses they suffered were generally as a result of the batting. In ODIs, the bowling is much more of a concern. If the bowlers have a plan then it must be one that has failed many times before, so time for a new one I think. Unlike the first game, the batting here was poor too. That's not a combination that will win you too many games.

  • POSTED BY jackiethepen on | January 15, 2013, 16:15 GMT

    I don't think England were ever in the hunt although they could have saved face with a good chase. Dhoni destroyed their chances by upping his game on a mediocre pitch. His helicopter shots were sensational. India were setting their sights on 240 - what they perceived as a good score. By getting over 280 we were never going to catch them. Scoreboard pressure would unhinge our best hopes. If we had won the toss and one of our batsman like KP had achieved the near impossible and racked up a similar innings, then we might have won. The latter could still happen. You would have to hope that out of 5 games, KP would feature in one of them. Three to go.

  • POSTED BY cric_J on | January 18, 2013, 8:15 GMT

    The English people are overreacting after their team's heavy defeat in the second ODI pretty much like they did after the loss in the first test in Ahmedabad.We all know how that one panned out ! So please show some faith in the English team. And although I do think India will win the third ODI in Ranchi by a good margin,England may have a better chance to win in Mohali or Dharamsala than in Ranchi.

  • POSTED BY garrym on | January 18, 2013, 6:06 GMT

    The "one dimensional" aspect of Kieswetter's batting has been highlighted many times and he should go. He has had plenty of chances but consistently uses a huge number of balls with no score. His keeping is only average as well. Bairstow is the most likely replacement if Prior is to remain a Test player only.

  • POSTED BY balajik1968 on | January 18, 2013, 1:27 GMT

    There is a strong case for England to play Prior in the LOI squad. A good keeper, an aggressive batsman, and a scrapper. The idea of having someone just biff the ball does'nt work. Look at most of the top ODI batsmen, they keep working the ball around, before really hitting out. Kieswetter does not seem able to do that. All he seems to do is biff. England should seriously look at Prior as a one day player. They have a good top order in Cook, Bell, Trott and Pietersen. Samit Patel also seems to be fitting in nicely. What they need now is Prior,who brings in 2 skills batting and keeping. Do not waste time looking for the next Gilchrist. Gilly was a one off. I am sure he would not have been picked if his glove-work was poor.

  • POSTED BY JG2704 on | January 17, 2013, 12:56 GMT

    @Nutcutlet -Could they not even try a spin option at the death. It may well go tits up but it's going tits up more often than not anyway so what are we risking? Surely this is a series where we could/should be trying different options.I don't have the stats but it seems that nearly every time our last few overs go for big runs

  • POSTED BY JG2704 on | January 17, 2013, 12:56 GMT

    @ himanshu.team -Pres you mean Oz and SA otherwise your comms make no sense.Eng have had a good year and re Oz - we beat them 4-0 7 or 8 months or so ago so and also beat Pak in UAE 4-0 so we have had the results to back up the ranking.The problem is that - unlike SA in particular - we don't have the depth to be able to rest players and still likely retain the top spot(which we've been dethroned of already) So yes ,we might not be the best ODI side but have got the results to get us there

    @Venkat_Super_11 -It's the way the press work.Must admit some of the pieces on here go overboard one way or the other.Same with posters. I personally try to be equally critical of England's flaws when we win as when we are defeated

  • POSTED BY himanshu.team on | January 17, 2013, 5:23 GMT

    England may be on top of the ODI rankings, but i never felt like they deserve to be there. It was more a matter of luck for them as England and Australia have both been better sides and even India was better till last year. Right now India is at its most vulnerable form. They just don't look like a side that can win against any good international side. Even then the victory that came against India in Rajkot was far from convincing. They should have thrashed India by a much bigger margin. Even in Kochi, they had the openers out cheaply within first 5 overs. They then got Kohli and Yuvi in relatively quick succession. From that point to concede 285 was not good at all. The batting was tested for the first time in the series against seam and spin. It collapsed miserably. They have to dig deep inside and find answers to these problems. They may still beat India in coming matches but, given the way India has performed recently, that would not be much to brag about.

  • POSTED BY Venkat_Super_11 on | January 17, 2013, 3:55 GMT

    I am an Indian but a good cricket fan in general. I can't believe how critics wake up to demoralize a team as soon as they lose a game. Only few weeks back, England rewrote the record in sub-continent, defeating India in its own soil and that too, comprehensively. And they also drew the T-20 series. Lastly, they even demonstrated their batting skills and bowling skills in the first ODI and won India quite comfortably. But as soon as they lost a game,I don't understand how everybody in the name of editors and authors, start criticizing a good team. Do they expect a team to win all games and not lose even a single game? Australia had lost to worthless teams like Zimbabwe, Pakistan had lost to Ireland, SA had lost to Bangladesh. Does it mean that they are not good performers?Just because you have the liberty to write an article, it doesn't mean that you have to do resort to such distasteful comments. England has proved again and again that they are one of the top best teams in the world.

  • POSTED BY Harmony111 on | January 16, 2013, 20:11 GMT

    @Bilal Shah: Regarding your comment for Kohli being found out by QUALITY bowling, do you not agree that Gul and Ajmal are quality bowlers too? Kohli faced them in BD as well as in WT20. Pls check how many he scored vs them - 183 & 70+.

    Turning your own logic around, were Gul & Ajmal not found out by Kohli alone in these 2 matches? We all saw how Viru smacked Gul for 4s in WC SF. Ajmal was mauled for 18 runs by Hussey in WT20 in WI. So who got found out here huh?

    Kohli simply had 3 bad games vs Pak. Junaid & Irfan etc are talented and promising but don't stretch how good they are or will be.

    I am sometimes amazed at the highly selective reasoning of some Pak fans here. All they now talk off is Kohli's failure cos he was their #1 threat and had a bad patch. Some Pak fans talk of Shoaib's yorker to SRT as proof of SRTs struggle vs fast bowling yet they hardly ever bring up the real hiding SRT gave to Shoaib, Wasim & Waqar in WC 03.

    And then you call us Ind fans as rude....huh.

  • POSTED BY Harmony111 on | January 16, 2013, 19:40 GMT

    I am often criticized for being a bit too hard on those who criticize Ind. But I find it weird that some of these ppl keep shifting their grounds of criticism. Mondays they criticize Ind for P1 and on Wednesdays when P! is in Ind favour they pick P2 to again criticize India.

    An apt case is Ind opposes DRS cos then they will lose games more often as their batsmen depend on lucky decisions to score runs. Yet, India's WC 2011 is often simply waived off by saying Ind won it cos of the DRS which gave SRT not out who was lucky to stay there due to DRS.

    @SevereCritic: When Ind lost to Eng in 1st ODI by a mere 9 runs, it was called a thrashing. When Eng won the 2nd T20 off the last ball to drew level it was said Ind were losing at home too. When Ind sore runs (home or Hobart or Mirpur) it is said they get them on flat tracks only. Ind's bowling is (rightfully) derided all day.

    So, when Ind win by 127 runs & Ind bowlers bowl Eng out on a flat track < 40 overs - Celebration fits well, no?

  • POSTED BY on | January 16, 2013, 18:42 GMT

    @ SevereCritic: I completely agree with you, India's main concern is their top order. They can't expect Dhoni or lower middle order to bail them out every time. Same was the patterns in recently concluded Pakistan series. For all his talent Kohli has been found short by some quality bowling, Rahane is nowhere near Dravid (as many suggested), Ghambirs problems are a well known secret to the bowlers world over. Yuvraj has had a bit success since his return, mainly because he stays true to his natural game. England on the other hand have their own problems, one feels that they are stuck between Test and T20 - yet to find a consistent ODI side. In the long run this series will provide a few answers about how the both sides will emerge in near future.

  • POSTED BY Strikeforce2007 on | January 16, 2013, 18:16 GMT

    The Poms are going to find it tougher now, Dhoni and team have started to find their rhythm. They will maintain that momentum in all probability at Rajkot. England's hassle is more in their self inflicted "mind block" facing spin. Most of their batsmen lack tge front foot play, relying more instead of dabbing at deliveries. The Poms seem to be nor looking at the wrist in release facing spin, as earlier sighting of the ball released by spinners, makes the footwork and arm-bat movement alongside foot placement needed in attacking spin. Unless KP and Morgan pull up their socks, their line up will fail in pressure. It's KP that needs to do the stay on wicket and run machine act. Meanwhile, India too needs Kohli to fire up and Ashwin to maintain his momentum. It's time after a decade or more in Gambhir putting a stop to change and slashing outside off. Yuvaraj must build on his innings foundation. Time to drop Ishant, add the spinner in Mishra. Bhuvaneshwar is india's find

  • POSTED BY SevereCritic on | January 16, 2013, 17:26 GMT

    I don't see the reason for all the massive celebrations by the Indian fans at all. India was bailed out of a really poor situation by Dhoni and Jadeja. Top order failed yet again. For all the talks about Rahane being the next Indian test opener, his technique is way below international level. No self respecting test opener will get out the way he did. In Collingwood's words -- "You could drive a bus between his bat and pads". When was the last time, one of the top 3 batsmen in the team scored a ton? Will need to fix the top order before SA series. Otherwise Morkel and Steyn will just carve a fresh one every match and the middle order will be left to dig out the batting every match from 19/3 or thereabouts. Defeating England at home is really not saying much. India have generally always defeated England at home. The top order needs to take responsibility. Dhoni can't bail you out every match.

  • POSTED BY Nutcutlet on | January 16, 2013, 16:32 GMT

    @Dark_Harlequin: with the current bowlers available (& that clearly excludes Broad for the foreseeable), I don't see anyone else who could be used as a death bowler in England's ranks. England doesn't have a Malinga, or even an Ian Harvey, so who else is there? Provided Finn stays fit, I wouldn't want him to become a death-bowler specialist; I see him as very much part of the Test set-up where the traditional virtues of line & length get due reward through a non-restricted field setting. His fitness, already an issue, mustn't be compromised further by constantly swapping formats. The modern perception is that it is a specialist role & that the ability to keep the batsman guessing is very much part of the d-bowler's stock-in-trade. Thinking out of the box, I'd like to see Eng use Rikki Clarke as an all-rounder & he has that surprise element as a bowler which should interest England. His batting & esp. his outstanding fielding, shd make him a strong contender for this problematic role.BW

  • POSTED BY bobmartin on | January 16, 2013, 14:03 GMT

    I guess the main thing is to look at the objective of this tour. If it's to try and break the run of ODI losses England have suffered in India, then the selectors would surely have sent a stronger side. Therefore one assumes that the aim is to expose some of the fringe players in order to assess their suitability or otherwise for promotion to the top echelons. The trouble is that with only three games left and the series tied one-all, will the selectors be brave enough to pick those who haven't yet featured in lieu of some of their obvious first choices from the first two games. .

  • POSTED BY drmaverick on | January 16, 2013, 13:34 GMT

    Nice overall comments by English fans .. they have got a test side which is definitely a top three side.. oneday side, more than just a good team.. the reserve they hav, especially in spin bowling, wil strenthen it esp in subcontinent conditions .. Indians, esp. batsmen, are masters of their home conditions; u need to have an attacking bowling side comprising both seamers n spinners to halt them, like Pakistan. Well, English are doin great n they should keep tryin if they want more wins ... Indians are low in confidence rt now, remeber that!

  • POSTED BY Harlequin. on | January 16, 2013, 13:26 GMT

    @nutcutlet - i don't quite understand why you think dernbachs replacement could not be a test match bowler. It seems to be a trend with England and a few of the other countries of using ODIs as a training ground for test cricket. I think it was a fair call having a look at Dernbach despite a fairly poor first class record in limited overs (econ of ~6 for a death bowler isn't awful but not amazing) but I reckon after 20 games it is clear that he isn't test match material and not good enough to be used as a specialist 1 day player. I'd much rather see a future test bowler take his place whilst JD works on his accuracy for his county.

  • POSTED BY GHemrajani on | January 16, 2013, 12:54 GMT

    Ya right - Trott would have solved the problem. With Cook, Bell and Trott in the top 3 and a flat pitch, I will favor India winning every time.

  • POSTED BY Nutcutlet on | January 16, 2013, 11:31 GMT

    @sweetspot: for once I can agree with the thrust of your comment (whether India has one whole notch to go is debatable, though). I honestly believe that MSD & his able understudy, Jadeja, would not have been contained in the last 10 overs by Anderson & Broad, or anyone else in the world (bar Stein & Morkel, possibly) in the form the two showed in Kochi. Many sound judges here seem to think that Dernbach should be dropped; to them I say, not so fast. England has invested heavily in JD & he is, when on song, a destructive death bowler. He (or any other Eng bowler, for that matter) can be made to look a novice by MSD on occasions like this. A rhythm bowler (say Jimmy) would be just as much cannon-fodder because the all-sorts variation of delivery is not what I want to see from Eng's premier Test match quick. IF JD is to be dropped, then it has to be for someone who is not, or is not going to be, a Test match player. Does anyone else fall into that category? Bring him forward. Where is he?

  • POSTED BY sweetspot on | January 16, 2013, 10:22 GMT

    Please let's not imagine Anderson and Broad would have had much greater impact than Dernbach and Woakes. Sure, they would bring in their experience but it isn't that long since Anderson went for 91 in 10 overs against a much less fancied opponent in these conditions. Bowling yorkers, we all know is asking Dhoni to hit sixers instead of fours. Just ask Malinga - arguably the best exponent of the yorker in the world today. On India's day, if the batting is on song, no bowling in the world can contain them. India still has a whole notch higher to go to.

  • POSTED BY saikarthikg on | January 16, 2013, 9:08 GMT

    I don't hink there is any problem with England ODI side. It's because of the people who are rested, we see England weak here. Once the likes of Trott, Anderson, Broad(Injury in his case) are in the pool, am sure that they are going to be one hell of a side. The result here shouldn't matter to them. Coz, probably they will go all guns abalze into the champions trophy in their home-turf.

  • POSTED BY bobmartin on | January 16, 2013, 8:18 GMT

    Personally I'm not convinced that any of the England quick bowlers in the squad, with the exception of Finn, are currently anywhere near good enough for an international one day side. Let's face it, our batting won us the 1st ODI.. despite the best attempts of our quick bowlers to throw the advantage away. Our batting failed in the 2nd ODI, our quick bowlers weren't up to snuff and we lost. I fear if this trend continues for the rest of the tour we'll do well to win 1 more game.

  • POSTED BY Dravid_Pujara_Gravitas on | January 16, 2013, 7:00 GMT

    Just one loss and England bashing is in full swing. I don't agree with several points in this article.

  • POSTED BY jmcilhinney on | January 16, 2013, 6:27 GMT

    @akhilesh0109 on (January 16 2013, 06:04 AM GMT), big deal! That's not exactly relevant to the point I was trying to make but please, ignore the message and zero in on something that you can criticise, because what's the internet for if not to criticise others and prove how great you are? I don't really care about the #1 ranking specifically. My point was that England must have had some good results to have a good ranking so it stands to reason that they are a good ODI team, but they are not a consistently good ODI, or even a consistently decent ODI team. They have extreme swings in apparent ability and that is something that they need to work on. That's the point I was trying to make but you you can just ignore that because obviously you da man and common sense is not important to you.

  • POSTED BY akhilesh0109 on | January 16, 2013, 6:04 GMT

    @jmcilhinney: check your facts before you post a comment.. England WERE the top ranked side in the world till yesterday.. Not anymore.. Its the saffers again..

  • POSTED BY jmcilhinney on | January 16, 2013, 5:24 GMT

    @glancedream on (January 16 2013, 04:04 AM GMT), I'm betting that you said that they'd win 5-0 before the first match so your predictions are worthless. Please take your own advice and just wait and watch instead of posting pointless comments.

  • POSTED BY landl47 on | January 16, 2013, 4:34 GMT

    England's top four in this game plus Trott when he returns are fine. I'd have Bairstow in place of Kieswetter. At the moment I'd take Patel over Root, but I like Root's temperament- he's a fighter. When they're all fit, the other four would be Broad, Swann, Anderson and Finn anywhere except the subcontinent, where I'd always take a second specialist spinner.

    I'd never pick Dernbach again, even to carry the drinks- he's not accurate enough to find his way to the middle.

    So the side that's playing India has six of England's best side, though I might concede that in the subcontinent Tredwell would make the XI instead of one of the seamers. I do wish that one of the top 5 batsmen was good for a few overs, but they aren't and that's all there is to it.

  • POSTED BY glancedream on | January 16, 2013, 4:04 GMT

    India Will Win 4-1 as i had mentioned after 1st match just wait & watch.......

  • POSTED BY jmcilhinney on | January 16, 2013, 3:06 GMT

    @SurlyCynic on (January 15 2013, 18:12 PM GMT), those are some rather stupid comments re Giles. Exactly what do you know about his coaching abilities? He was successful at Warks so there's no specific reason to believe that he won't be for England, as long as the personnel is there. Do you know something that the rest of us don't or are you just making things up to satisfy your need to be critical? England have already won one game this series so Giles has already done more than the coach of the ODI team on the last two England tours of India.

  • POSTED BY Whatsgoinoffoutthere on | January 16, 2013, 0:54 GMT

    @spiritwithin - I think what was telling about the 2-1 defeat to Pakistan is that (a) it was in India, and (b) Pakistan played a 38-year-old captain as a specialist batsman - a bloke who has 109 ODI caps and precisely zero ODI centuries. They also played the eternally useless Kamran Akmal, a guy who makes Kieswetter look like Alan Knott. You were at home, the other lot were at best a 9-man team and they still won. All is not well. As for England's ODIs in Australia, hadn't we just retained the Ashes? Do you think anyone even cared?

    @reghuh - Ishant Sharma could still be Dernbach's bowling coach and produce an improvement.

    My tip for the next ODI: Ashley Giles gets fed up and picks himself. If a job's worth doing, sometimes you have to do it yourself.

  • POSTED BY Whatsgoinoffoutthere on | January 16, 2013, 0:38 GMT

    @rajattiwaari - Bell, Cook and Morgan are proven competitors who have all produced runs on a regular basis. Failure in one game proves nothing. However, for Kieswetter this game resembles what is increasingly a normal day at the ODI office for him. Is Buttler in the squad? He might struggle a bit as a keeper but he's worth a shot as a batsman.

    As for Dernbach, he's not shown the consistency to keep his place. Give Meaker a go, at least we'll find out if he's up to the job.

    A batting blow-out by England isn't cause for panic, but to my mind the bowling is highly suspect. India shouldn't take too much comfort in caning nearly 300 off this lot, I hear that every one of Boycott's relatives has placed an order for rhubarb and are on their way over for a net. 18 for 2 and thirties off #3 and #4 is not the stuff of champions.

  • POSTED BY Harmony111 on | January 16, 2013, 0:04 GMT

    To be fair to Dernbach, he is one Eng bowler who always keeps me interested (worried). When he came on to ball in the last match to Dhoni I felt it would be a crucial moment and so it was when he got Dhoni off a slower ball. I think he is a strong bowler who can bowl at 90 miles an hour and has a plethora of variations though the major ones are his off the back-of-hand slower one and the surprise short ball. I really think he is only an inch or two away from being a deadly bowler. Easy to say but diff to do.

    I really do think he's got the skill to be Eng's lead bowler in limited cricket but for that he needs to get more accurate. He often releases a lot of pressure due to bad bowling. I am sure he knows it but his variations make it diff for him to control the aim. May be he just needs to have a clearer mind and to learn how to work a batsman out. Class bowlers get wickets of the 4th ball cos they set the batsman up on the 1st 3 balls.

    If Ishant can play 4 Ind surely JD can for Eng.

  • POSTED BY Harlequin. on | January 15, 2013, 22:36 GMT

    Credit to India, particularly Dhoni for his characteristic blundgeoning, and Jadeja for his slightly less that characteristic (but impressive nonetheless) performance.

    For England, the one glaring problem is Dernbach, his tricks have been deciphered and a couple of wickets can't mask that. The rest of the team I am not that concerned by - Dhoni's assault knocked the wind out of us and we didn't have the depth of experience to recover. It will come though, Root looked good but had too much to do, Woakes is a class act and needs to be allowed to settle. Keiswetter needs to be given a bit more of a license, and with someone like Trott at 3 he will get that. With the likes of Buttler, Bairstow and Patel in the lower middle order there are a few power hitting options. We were outclassed today, but the future is looking promising.

  • POSTED BY JG2704 on | January 15, 2013, 22:10 GMT

    @spiritwithin on (January 15 2013, 17:41 PM GMT) A bit generalistic there. We didn't struggle too much last year in ODIs and won 4-0 (T20s 2-1) in UAE which was not part of the UK last time I looked. Agree that India have had the better record in ODIs and player for player are prob better than Eng at this format and are better in the major competitions but we do have our moments. And while your guys will prob win this series 4-1 , despite today's thrashing it is still 1-1

  • POSTED BY Robster1 on | January 15, 2013, 20:27 GMT

    Dernbach's career economy rates are nothing to write home about and he's invariably expensive. It seems as though the only thing that keeps him in the England ODI squad is his occasional ability to dismiss a top batsman with an unusual delivery. To this pair of eyes he might be worth a place in the 20/20 set up where a variety of deliveries can be effective but his days in the ODI squad seem numbered - just consistently too expensive.

  • POSTED BY BMDeep on | January 15, 2013, 19:51 GMT

    @ Din7 : Lets not go into comparison game for a moment. Forget abt dominance, can u tell me even a period of 1 yr wen Eng is consistent in winning atleast 70 % of ODI's played in their country or in any other from 1970 - present? On any given day, india is far better OD team than Eng were and u can check d stats wen India toured ENG, Aus, NZ or SA for dat instance. D great bowlers like Anderson and Swann wer rested in dis particular series but they wer part of d squad wen Ind white washed Eng in their last two odi series's in IND. If a team dat is probably going through the leanest phase of the decade(last 10 yrs) in terms of their batting could beat Eng by a margin of 130 runs, i leave it to ur imagination wat an inform Ind team could do to Eng at ant place in d world.

  • POSTED BY rajattiwaari on | January 15, 2013, 19:28 GMT

    Today Kieswetter scored as many as Bell, Cook and Morgan put together and didn't concede a single bye behind the sticks. We should all probably be looking for a different bonfire to piss on.

  • POSTED BY MyOpinion4u on | January 15, 2013, 19:25 GMT

    I do not know how Indian fans manage to forget humiliation they just got from Pakistan few days back. They lost 1st ODI and only leveled the series now and they are talking like they have won the complete series. Relax dude, there are still 3 matches to come.

  • POSTED BY Rahulbose on | January 15, 2013, 18:33 GMT

    Eng have already shown scant respect for India or this series by sending in their second choice bowlers. Indians no doubt will rejoice this big win after so many defeats. But if they are honest, they know this was a weak inexperienced Eng bowling lineup.

  • POSTED BY Sultan2007 on | January 15, 2013, 18:14 GMT

    Its true that India will struggle more in England and Aus - perhaps even more than England would; but at an emotional level (and this seems to be an emotional debate more than a sane one), India did win its First World Cup in ENGLAND!!!! Fair to say that they show greater versatility/adaptability than the English have done over the last few decades?

  • POSTED BY SurlyCynic on | January 15, 2013, 18:12 GMT

    The effects of the Ashley Giles reverse-midas touch become clear. Unfortunately when you appoint a journeyman of limited talent as coach this is what happens.

    The first ODI was won because of individual batting brilliance, and even then a total of over 300 almost wasn't defended. The bowlers looked clueless. Now the whole team looked clueless. Well done ECB.

  • POSTED BY reghuh on | January 15, 2013, 18:03 GMT

    First thing to do is to drop Ishant Sharma.He is consistantly unable to produce even one single full length bal, leave aside yorkersl.Im unsure whether he will be able to even get a county XI batsman out in the current form (which he is in for last 1 year or more).In addition, he is leaking runs like anything(70+ in last ODI).Instead of Ishant, even Dhoni can bowl if it means to fill the overs or maybe someone like Irfan Pathan would be handy.Anyway Ishants overs are all being clobbered and seldom a major wicket is claimed by Ishant in recent performances. Gambhir should be rested till he gets back to form - similarly Rohit Sharma....maybe some chance can be given to Pujara/Murali Vijay/Dhawan Varun Aaron/S.Sreeshant/Umesh Yadav are anytime better choices than someone like Ishant who seldom takes wickets other than that of tailenders... Dhoni proves his critics that he is all time best captain/player that india has ever witnessed...one in the class of Dada

  • POSTED BY spiritwithin on | January 15, 2013, 17:41 GMT

    @din7..srry to burst ur bubble but india in limited over cricket is better than england in any part of the world,india is not doing well since july 2011 from english tour but unlike england which always struggles in shorter format be it at home or away against most teams most of the times wont be in reckoning for either champions trophy or WC in aus/nz..there is more chance of india or any other team doing well in these events than england since eng r always poor in global event..u r talking about how india struggled in aus but forget the 6-1 thrashing eng received at the hands of aus last time in australia...u talk about india losing in asia cup and the recent loss to pak but quickly forget the 5-0 against india last time,cherry picking??

  • POSTED BY din7 on | January 15, 2013, 16:56 GMT

    That guy in comment no3 commenting thru FB actually shied from giving name...but he's 1 of those who was prdictin 4-0 in Tests and 5-0 in odis..right mate! And hes here again and ur right mate we are world champions just In INDIA and nothin more, just remember what happened in asia cup, aginst eng in eng and in triseries in aus. and also against pakistan u will get ur ans and mate u have opened ur mouth little too early still 3 more ODIs to go and even if eng lose this series..it wont matter to them cause next champions trophy is in eng and WC in aus..where ind will have no chance and eng will have much more...so mate better face the truth while commentin! HAHAHAH

  • POSTED BY vrn59 on | January 15, 2013, 16:25 GMT

    My England XI for the Champions Trophy: Alastair Cook (C), Ian Bell, Jonathan Trott, Kevin Pietersen, Eoin Morgan, Matt Prior (wk), Luke Wright, Stuart Broad, Graeme Swann, James Anderson, Steven Finn. Other squad players: Jonny Bairstow (backup wicketkeeper-batsman), Samit Patel (spin-bowling all-rounder), Tim Bresnan (backup seam-bowling all-rounder), Jade Dernbach (backup seamer) and James Tredwell (second spinner). Bairstow could be included instead of Wright, but I feel that Wright will be a handy seamer on English wickets, and is also a more experienced international player. His batting in the World Twenty20 in Sri Lanka was fantastic, considering there were few other senior players in the team at the time. He could have an impact at No. 7, or maybe even No. 6. Prior is now a much better cricketer than he was two years ago and deserves a recall. His keeping is solid and possibly unmatched and he can be a dangerous batsman too.

  • POSTED BY SevereCritic on | January 15, 2013, 16:10 GMT

    Why not give Butler a shot instead of Kieswetter?

  • POSTED BY on | January 15, 2013, 16:03 GMT

    Those England folks commenting on India's lack of win in the one day series need to go and watch that series again, England won with help of Rain not by their ability, I really enjoyed James Anderson/Finn/Bresnan being carted for sixes like just ordinary bowlers in their own seaming and bouncy wicket by our batsman. Can England do it here consistently Answer will be no, they struggled against a bowler who just bowled at 135 kmph.

    I agree you have better test team but in one day your team is atleast 5-6 years behind India. We are world Champions whether you like it or not.

  • POSTED BY on | January 15, 2013, 16:03 GMT

    Those England folks commenting on India's lack of win in the one day series need to go and watch that series again, England won with help of Rain not by their ability, I really enjoyed James Anderson/Finn/Bresnan being carted for sixes like just ordinary bowlers in their own seaming and bouncy wicket by our batsman. Can England do it here consistently Answer will be no, they struggled against a bowler who just bowled at 135 kmph.

    I agree you have better test team but in one day your team is atleast 5-6 years behind India. We are world Champions whether you like it or not.

  • POSTED BY SevereCritic on | January 15, 2013, 16:10 GMT

    Why not give Butler a shot instead of Kieswetter?

  • POSTED BY vrn59 on | January 15, 2013, 16:25 GMT

    My England XI for the Champions Trophy: Alastair Cook (C), Ian Bell, Jonathan Trott, Kevin Pietersen, Eoin Morgan, Matt Prior (wk), Luke Wright, Stuart Broad, Graeme Swann, James Anderson, Steven Finn. Other squad players: Jonny Bairstow (backup wicketkeeper-batsman), Samit Patel (spin-bowling all-rounder), Tim Bresnan (backup seam-bowling all-rounder), Jade Dernbach (backup seamer) and James Tredwell (second spinner). Bairstow could be included instead of Wright, but I feel that Wright will be a handy seamer on English wickets, and is also a more experienced international player. His batting in the World Twenty20 in Sri Lanka was fantastic, considering there were few other senior players in the team at the time. He could have an impact at No. 7, or maybe even No. 6. Prior is now a much better cricketer than he was two years ago and deserves a recall. His keeping is solid and possibly unmatched and he can be a dangerous batsman too.

  • POSTED BY din7 on | January 15, 2013, 16:56 GMT

    That guy in comment no3 commenting thru FB actually shied from giving name...but he's 1 of those who was prdictin 4-0 in Tests and 5-0 in odis..right mate! And hes here again and ur right mate we are world champions just In INDIA and nothin more, just remember what happened in asia cup, aginst eng in eng and in triseries in aus. and also against pakistan u will get ur ans and mate u have opened ur mouth little too early still 3 more ODIs to go and even if eng lose this series..it wont matter to them cause next champions trophy is in eng and WC in aus..where ind will have no chance and eng will have much more...so mate better face the truth while commentin! HAHAHAH

  • POSTED BY spiritwithin on | January 15, 2013, 17:41 GMT

    @din7..srry to burst ur bubble but india in limited over cricket is better than england in any part of the world,india is not doing well since july 2011 from english tour but unlike england which always struggles in shorter format be it at home or away against most teams most of the times wont be in reckoning for either champions trophy or WC in aus/nz..there is more chance of india or any other team doing well in these events than england since eng r always poor in global event..u r talking about how india struggled in aus but forget the 6-1 thrashing eng received at the hands of aus last time in australia...u talk about india losing in asia cup and the recent loss to pak but quickly forget the 5-0 against india last time,cherry picking??

  • POSTED BY reghuh on | January 15, 2013, 18:03 GMT

    First thing to do is to drop Ishant Sharma.He is consistantly unable to produce even one single full length bal, leave aside yorkersl.Im unsure whether he will be able to even get a county XI batsman out in the current form (which he is in for last 1 year or more).In addition, he is leaking runs like anything(70+ in last ODI).Instead of Ishant, even Dhoni can bowl if it means to fill the overs or maybe someone like Irfan Pathan would be handy.Anyway Ishants overs are all being clobbered and seldom a major wicket is claimed by Ishant in recent performances. Gambhir should be rested till he gets back to form - similarly Rohit Sharma....maybe some chance can be given to Pujara/Murali Vijay/Dhawan Varun Aaron/S.Sreeshant/Umesh Yadav are anytime better choices than someone like Ishant who seldom takes wickets other than that of tailenders... Dhoni proves his critics that he is all time best captain/player that india has ever witnessed...one in the class of Dada

  • POSTED BY SurlyCynic on | January 15, 2013, 18:12 GMT

    The effects of the Ashley Giles reverse-midas touch become clear. Unfortunately when you appoint a journeyman of limited talent as coach this is what happens.

    The first ODI was won because of individual batting brilliance, and even then a total of over 300 almost wasn't defended. The bowlers looked clueless. Now the whole team looked clueless. Well done ECB.

  • POSTED BY Sultan2007 on | January 15, 2013, 18:14 GMT

    Its true that India will struggle more in England and Aus - perhaps even more than England would; but at an emotional level (and this seems to be an emotional debate more than a sane one), India did win its First World Cup in ENGLAND!!!! Fair to say that they show greater versatility/adaptability than the English have done over the last few decades?

  • POSTED BY Rahulbose on | January 15, 2013, 18:33 GMT

    Eng have already shown scant respect for India or this series by sending in their second choice bowlers. Indians no doubt will rejoice this big win after so many defeats. But if they are honest, they know this was a weak inexperienced Eng bowling lineup.

  • POSTED BY MyOpinion4u on | January 15, 2013, 19:25 GMT

    I do not know how Indian fans manage to forget humiliation they just got from Pakistan few days back. They lost 1st ODI and only leveled the series now and they are talking like they have won the complete series. Relax dude, there are still 3 matches to come.