Pakistan v Australia 2009 April 27, 2009

Ramiz and Boycott call for legalising doosra

Cricinfo staff
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Ramiz Raja and Geoff Boycott have both urged the ICC to legalise the doosra. Their comments came after Saeed Ajmal, the Pakistan offspinner was reported by match officials for a suspect action while bowling the contentious delivery during the second ODI against Australia in Dubai on Friday.

The doosra is the offspinner's equivalent of the leg-break bowler's googly, in that the delivery turns in the opposite direction to a conventional ball.

"Why not legalise the art of doosra, which gives an offspinner variation in an otherwise flat one-sided spin?" Ramiz asked. "I see Saeed Ajmal's action being questioned as unacceptable. It adds to the repertoire of an offspinner, so I see it as an art."

Boycott - who like Ramiz is commentating on the ODI series - was also severely critical of the decision on Ajmal. "Muralitharan was cleared, so was Harbhajan, so why question a kid who has just come onto the scene?" he asked. "I think Ajmal has an art and he must execute it."

The umpires found enough cause for concern to report Ajmal's action, making him the second offspinner to be cited for a doosra in a fortnight after Johan Botha, the South African limited overs vice-captain, was reported following the fourth ODI against Australia in Port Elizabeth.

Ramiz also sought a relaxation of the ICC's laws to allow offspinners to bowl a doosra. "Why not relax the rules and give two to three degrees more to offspinners to bowl a doosra?"

The ICC rules allow a maximum limit of 15 degrees of flexion, which means no bowler can extend their elbow beyond that level.

Comments have now been closed for this article

  • Sampuksy on April 30, 2009, 20:00 GMT

    I am amazed at how people have tried to compare the doosra to deadly drugs like lsd and heroine. This shows that how some people just have to prove a point by some means, even if its ridiculous. Whats the point of a game if it has always to be played by a set of X number of rules. Variations and innovations make cricket the enjoyment it is. Ofcourse, there have to be some ground rules, but just getting fearful that how a doosra may be proven effective against the aussies, is just to create an atmosphere of conspiracy. Plus, doosra is just a surprise thing. Its not that Ajmail bowls it 5/6 balls an over with the arm flex greater than 15 degrees. Doosra is meant to be thrown once an over or may be twice (very rare ocassions), just for the sake of surprising the batsman. Doosra is not as harmful as use of lsd or heroine. For God's sake, please let something go with conspiring the hell out of it.

  • redneck on April 30, 2009, 5:41 GMT

    a few asians getting stirred up about spinners bowling with a illegal action getting caught only when australias playing! funny because the umpires that have made the report are not australian, infact in the cases of botha and ajmal both were reported by umpires of the same nationality in koetzen and rauf! the rules are there no matter what nationality you are they need to be abided by which botha and ajmal failed to do!

  • Copernicus on April 29, 2009, 6:25 GMT

    Funny how most of the people here who call for the doosra to be legalised (which is a mistake in itself - as has already been stated, the doosra is legal just not chucking) seem to be subcontinental supporters who see some sort of conspiracy against them every time anything anyone from that region does is challenged in any way. Well calm down people and bring your persecution complex down a notch: the very laws of the game were changed in order for a certain M. Muralitharan to "bowl" so I don't think there can be any complaint about a mere reporting. Besides, where a bowler is from doesnt change the fact that chucking is chucking is chucking. IT IS AGAINST THE RULES.

    As a side note, I think Botha is simply the first non-subcontinental player to exploit the law change that was designed for Murali, which is why there seems a disproportionate amount of scrutiny placed on subcontinental players - more of them practice the doosra. It's that simple.

  • JohnMills on April 29, 2009, 6:16 GMT

    I hope somebody teaches the Aussies Doosra or at least teaches them how to play it then we would have lesser complaints. ;)

  • SameerK on April 28, 2009, 23:13 GMT

    robheinen,

    no one is allowing offspinners to flex their arms. it is just this type of distinct delivery called the "doosra" which is being discussed in its pretext. if a offspinner bowling doosra goes to 16 degree instead of 15 limit, in that case, the rules for doosra must be softened a lil bit. not on everything but just the doosra.

    just like the googly plays its role for a legspinner, its very hard to bowl a good doosra with staying inside the limit. its all about changing the art of offspin.

    you should look for uniformity in laws, but if its killing the art of doosra, then something has to be done about it.

    i am not proposing for doosra to go to like 20 degrees but if it goes to 16 or 17 degrees than thats not that bad in order to keep offspiners variety alive.

  • imiekhan on April 28, 2009, 20:52 GMT

    robheinen i was laughing wen i was reading your comments, what are you talking about?

  • nabskhan on April 28, 2009, 14:19 GMT

    i have one consistent fact to point out in regards to all these suspect bowling actions, whether its a fast bowler or a spin bowler, they are all REPORTED BY AUSTRAILIA. Looking at the recent past even, Murali, Harbhajan, Botha and now Ajmal, 3 out of 4 are south asians but poor Botha wasnt spared as soon as he started taking some wickets against Austrailia. I dont know if its a coincidence that the other 4 countries Ajmal played against did not notice it or maybe Austrailians just have the special vision on these things that no one else has. At the end of the day, they have all been and will be cleared to play, therefore, Austrailians should stop wasting everyones time and let people play cricket. Looking at the bright side, MAYBE Hauritz can learn to bowl the dosra from Ajmal, and IF he does learn it, i am pretty sure no spinner will ever be reported for it again in the future.

  • NadeemRizvi on April 28, 2009, 13:56 GMT

    I agree with robheinen both Ramiz and Boycott are confused between art & technique. Doosra is totally legal and there are and were players who use to bowl without flexing their elbows like Saqlain who was inverter of this art and was never reported for any illegal action. I also agree with the umpires if they find anyone with illegal action they should ban the player immediately one or two such actions will be enough for others to learn a lesson from it.

  • Ozcricketwriter on April 28, 2009, 13:40 GMT

    We do need to have something put in place that favours bowlers more, as it is far too much a batsman's game right now (batting averages are way up). So here are some ideas: 1) Ban the covering of pitches and make a pitch be declared "unplayable" if it is in a situation that it is easy to score runs 2) Don't go off for rain - instead make them keep playing in the rain 3) If it doesn't rain enough, then make the groundsmen bring out a sprinkler during each interval to make the pitch harder to play on 4) Enforce "6 and out" rule 5) Make bats a lot lighter and ban all heavy bats 6) Make bats a lot thinner 7) Allow "one hand one bounce" rules 8) Enforce "tippy goes" rules so that if they hit it then they have to run 9) Play "electric wickets" so that it doesn't matter which end you throw it to 10) Increase the tolerance to 20 or even 25 degrees of flexion. All better than "allowing the doosra" just for 1 delivery to break the rules.

  • Mike_Walker on April 28, 2009, 13:14 GMT

    It isn't illegal. The doosra is just like any delivery, which is illegal if the arm is not straight (under 15 degrees). If the ICC cave now and let them bend their arm more, then down the line someone is going to bowl 20 degrees and ask for that to be legal. Then someone 22 degrees and so forth. The ICC had a massive problem when they increased it to 15 degrees. The rule should just be a straight arm. I agree with Sriram, a can of worms has opened really.

    The ICC should not cave, bowlers should learn to bowl within the rules.

  • Sampuksy on April 30, 2009, 20:00 GMT

    I am amazed at how people have tried to compare the doosra to deadly drugs like lsd and heroine. This shows that how some people just have to prove a point by some means, even if its ridiculous. Whats the point of a game if it has always to be played by a set of X number of rules. Variations and innovations make cricket the enjoyment it is. Ofcourse, there have to be some ground rules, but just getting fearful that how a doosra may be proven effective against the aussies, is just to create an atmosphere of conspiracy. Plus, doosra is just a surprise thing. Its not that Ajmail bowls it 5/6 balls an over with the arm flex greater than 15 degrees. Doosra is meant to be thrown once an over or may be twice (very rare ocassions), just for the sake of surprising the batsman. Doosra is not as harmful as use of lsd or heroine. For God's sake, please let something go with conspiring the hell out of it.

  • redneck on April 30, 2009, 5:41 GMT

    a few asians getting stirred up about spinners bowling with a illegal action getting caught only when australias playing! funny because the umpires that have made the report are not australian, infact in the cases of botha and ajmal both were reported by umpires of the same nationality in koetzen and rauf! the rules are there no matter what nationality you are they need to be abided by which botha and ajmal failed to do!

  • Copernicus on April 29, 2009, 6:25 GMT

    Funny how most of the people here who call for the doosra to be legalised (which is a mistake in itself - as has already been stated, the doosra is legal just not chucking) seem to be subcontinental supporters who see some sort of conspiracy against them every time anything anyone from that region does is challenged in any way. Well calm down people and bring your persecution complex down a notch: the very laws of the game were changed in order for a certain M. Muralitharan to "bowl" so I don't think there can be any complaint about a mere reporting. Besides, where a bowler is from doesnt change the fact that chucking is chucking is chucking. IT IS AGAINST THE RULES.

    As a side note, I think Botha is simply the first non-subcontinental player to exploit the law change that was designed for Murali, which is why there seems a disproportionate amount of scrutiny placed on subcontinental players - more of them practice the doosra. It's that simple.

  • JohnMills on April 29, 2009, 6:16 GMT

    I hope somebody teaches the Aussies Doosra or at least teaches them how to play it then we would have lesser complaints. ;)

  • SameerK on April 28, 2009, 23:13 GMT

    robheinen,

    no one is allowing offspinners to flex their arms. it is just this type of distinct delivery called the "doosra" which is being discussed in its pretext. if a offspinner bowling doosra goes to 16 degree instead of 15 limit, in that case, the rules for doosra must be softened a lil bit. not on everything but just the doosra.

    just like the googly plays its role for a legspinner, its very hard to bowl a good doosra with staying inside the limit. its all about changing the art of offspin.

    you should look for uniformity in laws, but if its killing the art of doosra, then something has to be done about it.

    i am not proposing for doosra to go to like 20 degrees but if it goes to 16 or 17 degrees than thats not that bad in order to keep offspiners variety alive.

  • imiekhan on April 28, 2009, 20:52 GMT

    robheinen i was laughing wen i was reading your comments, what are you talking about?

  • nabskhan on April 28, 2009, 14:19 GMT

    i have one consistent fact to point out in regards to all these suspect bowling actions, whether its a fast bowler or a spin bowler, they are all REPORTED BY AUSTRAILIA. Looking at the recent past even, Murali, Harbhajan, Botha and now Ajmal, 3 out of 4 are south asians but poor Botha wasnt spared as soon as he started taking some wickets against Austrailia. I dont know if its a coincidence that the other 4 countries Ajmal played against did not notice it or maybe Austrailians just have the special vision on these things that no one else has. At the end of the day, they have all been and will be cleared to play, therefore, Austrailians should stop wasting everyones time and let people play cricket. Looking at the bright side, MAYBE Hauritz can learn to bowl the dosra from Ajmal, and IF he does learn it, i am pretty sure no spinner will ever be reported for it again in the future.

  • NadeemRizvi on April 28, 2009, 13:56 GMT

    I agree with robheinen both Ramiz and Boycott are confused between art & technique. Doosra is totally legal and there are and were players who use to bowl without flexing their elbows like Saqlain who was inverter of this art and was never reported for any illegal action. I also agree with the umpires if they find anyone with illegal action they should ban the player immediately one or two such actions will be enough for others to learn a lesson from it.

  • Ozcricketwriter on April 28, 2009, 13:40 GMT

    We do need to have something put in place that favours bowlers more, as it is far too much a batsman's game right now (batting averages are way up). So here are some ideas: 1) Ban the covering of pitches and make a pitch be declared "unplayable" if it is in a situation that it is easy to score runs 2) Don't go off for rain - instead make them keep playing in the rain 3) If it doesn't rain enough, then make the groundsmen bring out a sprinkler during each interval to make the pitch harder to play on 4) Enforce "6 and out" rule 5) Make bats a lot lighter and ban all heavy bats 6) Make bats a lot thinner 7) Allow "one hand one bounce" rules 8) Enforce "tippy goes" rules so that if they hit it then they have to run 9) Play "electric wickets" so that it doesn't matter which end you throw it to 10) Increase the tolerance to 20 or even 25 degrees of flexion. All better than "allowing the doosra" just for 1 delivery to break the rules.

  • Mike_Walker on April 28, 2009, 13:14 GMT

    It isn't illegal. The doosra is just like any delivery, which is illegal if the arm is not straight (under 15 degrees). If the ICC cave now and let them bend their arm more, then down the line someone is going to bowl 20 degrees and ask for that to be legal. Then someone 22 degrees and so forth. The ICC had a massive problem when they increased it to 15 degrees. The rule should just be a straight arm. I agree with Sriram, a can of worms has opened really.

    The ICC should not cave, bowlers should learn to bowl within the rules.

  • robheinen on April 28, 2009, 12:48 GMT

    PART 1 I'm afraid mr. Raja confuses art & technique used to perform the art. The art is what the off spinner does, the technique how he does it. The next thing is that not everything new is here to stay. If that were the case we would live in a very weird world. Many things are invented or discovered and after a while discarded as useful, or even illegal. Consider the discovery of lsd or the invention of herion. Initially they were greated as great discoveries & inventions. Lsd for its supposed widening of human consciousness and herion as a good cure against soldiers' disease. Later both substances were deeemed illegal and remain so to this day. With lsd hardly being mentioned anymore.The same goes for the doosra. If it takes an illegal action to bowl the doosra then it's illegal and should be - and remain - no-balled.

  • robheinen on April 28, 2009, 12:47 GMT

    PART 2 It's the great Glenn McGrath that said that it takes only half a bat's width to get a batsman out and what use is a spinner if he can't get that variation in his bowling without having to chuck. There's plenty of options for the off spinner to surprise batsmen. The normal off spinner, the arm ball, the flipper, the seamer, variation in pace, position at the crease and even the ridiculous robert croft stop-in-mid-delivery ball. In short if it's illegal, it's illegal and should stay illegal.

  • robheinen on April 28, 2009, 12:47 GMT

    PART 3 There's no reason why an off spinner should be allowed to flex his arm and any other type bowler not. How do you distinguish one type bowler from another. Are both Mendis & Saqlain off spinners? If so, why? Is Muralitharan an off spinner? Id so, why? All these bowlers have their own distinct style of 'off spin' bowling. So much so that you can question of their categorisation is correct. Maybe new names should be thought up for the category. So if you should allow the off spinners to flex their arm, why not allow the fast bowler the same.

  • robheinen on April 28, 2009, 12:47 GMT

    PART 4 In the end it all boils down to where we want the sport to go. What I, as a professional in information technology, am always looking for is as much uniformity as possible in order to build an application as generic as possible. I think this principle works well in all parts of life . Also in sports where you want the least possible rules to make a game as attractive as possible, without the pharisees spoiling the fun with quotes from the Book of Rules. While we're at it, what's the use in modern cricket for the three players on the on side behind the sqaure leg umpire no ball rule? This rule was invented after the bodyline tour, because people really got hurt, not having any form of protection in that region. Later on the game got rougher and batsman protection better. Why not chuck this rule out. There's no more practical use for it. Drop it!!

  • scritty on April 28, 2009, 12:05 GMT

    The fast bowlers flex in most cases includes hyperextension Ahktar is far and away the fast bowler with the greatest change in angle. James Kirtley of England probably comes next.

    As for "lets be lenient" Where does it end ? No-balls allowed, bigger bats The rules are more lenient for bowlers than they ever have been, let's not wreck the game. The reason bowlers try more and more varients is because the pitches around the world are all pudding slow.

    "This is a pitch to take the pace off the ball" I hear this over and over again.

    The last WI/England series was the most boring cricket I've ever watched (in over 50 years)

    Bowlers don't need to cheat to win. They need administrators to actually prepare decent strips.

    Last thought. If Muralideran had come from a well established Test nation (in the mid 90's) and not a relatively new one with a weak bowling attack that the ICC were keen to see progress...do you think this issue would have occured ?

  • sundar02 on April 28, 2009, 11:37 GMT

    If we start to legalise because it is an art, then throw also should be considered as a art. Then it is no longer cricket. Batsman can use different shape of the bat bse if you do that way it will an art as well!!!! ICC makeing changes to kill cricket not to develop cricket.

  • irfan.ahmad1976 on April 28, 2009, 11:29 GMT

    First of all if ICC has a procedure it should follow that and there is no point to cry over it. My only concern is about the late feeling of Pakistani Umpires about hs action. All of these have stood in so many matches involving Saeed and he has been bowling this delivery for a long time. Why didn't they report him to PCB earliar? The question is not about doosra to be allowed by ICC. There is a limit of bending the arm and if the bowler bowls within the limit then they should be allowed and if not then they should not be allowed regardless of their medical history. If some one has any problem with the joints or whatever then he should play in special cricket rather than getting advantage of his problem and making world records.

  • Philip_Gnana on April 28, 2009, 11:03 GMT

    Well, Well, Well. The degree of flexation was increased to accommodate the bowlers whom we thought had a clean action. If this was not increased to 15 degrees the so called greats such as McGrath, Pollock, Lee etc would not have been able to continue bowling. Which then raises the point whether the accusations levelled against the spinners was valid in the first place. Imagine those record hauls not being recognised for the fast bowlers? Or was it because they were perhaps not from the sub-continent.

    You cannot have one rule for a fast bowler and another one for a slow bowler. Bowlers are bowlers. Just get on with it and make it 15degrees for all. Why discriminate.

    I am sure If Murali had not been taking wickets there would not have been an issue. Was there ever and issue with the South African spinner Paul? He did have a weird (not necessarily illegal) action. This was not scrutinised because he did not pose a danger to Shane Warne.

    Philip Gnana, New Malden, Surrey.

  • chook83 on April 28, 2009, 10:49 GMT

    This notion is a farce. Legalise a delivery because it's an art? If the cricket world had outlawed such an action (Adelaide, 1995) then there would be no issue now. Surely off spinners are crafty enough creatures without needing to resort to throwing or do the next bowling coaches come from the baseball world series?

  • plow on April 28, 2009, 10:26 GMT

    Who said the doosra is illegal?

    I dont remember seeing that anywhere.. what is illegal is flexing the elbow more than 15 degrees.

    The doosra should be allowed if you can bowl it without flexing more than the limit. The problem is nobosy can bowl a decent turning doosra reguarly without flexing more than 15 degrees, Murali flexes over this on match conditions reguarly but has been cleared so many times now by rubbish lab testing he is now scott free. All these off spinners suddenly getting pulled up I feel sorry for, there is massive double standards in the ICC these days.

  • The_LionKIng on April 28, 2009, 10:23 GMT

    What's next? Should we allow bowlers not to be called no ball if they are only a little bit over the line?. Shall we let fielders take catches on the half volley because it's close enough?. Chuckers need to be outlawed EVERY delivery.

  • reality_check on April 28, 2009, 10:12 GMT

    If Gilchrist can use a squash ball to his advantage then why can't an off spinner bend an arm a bit to his advantage? Squash ball is NOT part of the batsman kit so it is an unfair advantage but I didn't hear any fuss over it at the time. Rules cannot be enforced selectively depending on which geography a player comes from.

  • Naveed on April 28, 2009, 9:48 GMT

    "Not sure why rules have to be changed everytime there is an issue. There already are too many changes which is affecting the concept of level playing field. I would have been happy if Rameez had urged ICC to work towards creating Sporting Wickets, Standardization of Cricket Equipment quality etc... More than asking for leagalizing Doosra this looks like requesting ICC to leagalize Pelting as long as it gives some different output."

    This is with reference to the above comments, why not legalize doosra? It is the same as googly of a leg break bowler, then also ban the googly. Moreover also ban the reverse-sweep because it is the doosra of conventional sweep.

  • Ash_from_Bombay on April 28, 2009, 9:32 GMT

    I see no reason why the Doosra should not be allowed. Its a good variation that has brought an element of surprise into the art of spin bowling.

    Brandanvio: I beg to differ. Laker and Tayfield didn't have to contend with batsmen having 3-pound bazookas, ridiculously short boundaries and fifth day pitches with no signs of deterioration. I would have agreed with you normally, but given the sheer imbalance between bat and ball in contemporary cricket, I'm all for a change in rules that can do something to level the playing field.

  • Naveed on April 28, 2009, 9:09 GMT

    I am more curious about the opposition team. Why almost all the bowlers reported against bowling to the Australian team? For instance, Murali, Botha, Ajmal and may be Bhajji also? Whoever trouble the Australian batting immediately called for illegal action why? If no other team finds any problem playing these spinners, why only Australian? Is ICC blind enough to call every bowler only because of Australian team?

  • vishysblue on April 28, 2009, 7:41 GMT

    I would tend to agree to what Rameez and Boycott have to say.When Murali and Bhajji can bowl the doosra, why not Ajmal who bowls the delivery exactly as the others. Also, this game is degenerating into a completely batsman friendly game. Soon, we are going to have a situation wherein you need just the bowling machine and they would be against the batsmen. If I am given the reins of deciding the rules of the game, i would go back 50-60 years into the past. I would bring back the rules favoring the bowlers. This game is not just about the batsmen. If you do not have a competition between bat and ball, then it is not worth to watch the game. And such a game will not survive. The test matches are the only real form of the game today. T20 and ODI's are only for the corporates and others to fill up their coffers. Legalize Ajmal. We need all the bowling skills we can get. We cannot afford to lose tose talent just because some batsmen could not read the bowler.

  • Sriram_Krishnamurthy on April 28, 2009, 7:33 GMT

    I am as furious as most of you guys are. One cant just legalize an illegal thing. But it looks like the ICC has opened up the Pandora's box by letting Murali. If Murali can, why cant the others. Its not gonna be too long before we see underarm bowling being legalized. What the Chappel brothers did 20 odd years back would just be legal in a few years!! God save Cricket.

  • TellingRF on April 28, 2009, 7:11 GMT

    Rules should not be changed to accommodate individuals. But the rules should be set in a more meaningful manner. Just arbitrarily deciding that 15 degrees is the limit is wrong. Take a bowler whose action looks good. Eg: Most people say Shane Warne's got a "Perfect Action". So subject him to the Tests that someone like Muralidaran has been and record the degree of straightening. Then, record the straightening of arm of a bowler who looks on the border of being illegal. (I use the word "Looks" because that's what on-field Umpires can do) Everybody else should fall between these two values. If an Umpire reports a Bowler and he is subjected to the same Tests and cleared, he should be deemed a Legal Bowler. Remember when the earlier Rule was 10 degrees. Everybody bagged Muralidaran only to find out that McGrath, Lee & over 90% of the bowlers were over 10 degrees? The Rule is what needs to be straightened before pointing the finger at anyone.

  • punditofcricket on April 28, 2009, 6:46 GMT

    The bowling rules are already a joke ..lets not degrade it further.With 15 degrees we saved people like murali shoaib etc ..lets not degrade it further

  • moegoe on April 28, 2009, 6:28 GMT

    Legalise it. Spin is by far one of the most interesting and sophisticated aspects of the game dominated by batsmen and often endless one-dimensional fast bowling. This kind of innovation should be encouraged, rather than stunted.

    Besides, it seems the only time any spinner gets reported is when they're beating the Australians. And Now that the Aussies don't have a decent spinner, this is becoming rather predictable ..

  • __PK on April 28, 2009, 6:03 GMT

    Murali was cleared - only after they changed the rule so that his alleged chucking became legal. Harbhajan was cleared - only after he went away and changed his action (the right thing to have done, in the circumstances). Ajmal can play if he plays by the same rules as everyone else. Allowing offies to straighten their elbows is like giving them a second wrist - an unfair advantage. Allow this and you may as well drop the whole chucking rule. If you want to watch baseball, gentlemen, please do so and let the rest of us watch cricket. Steeeerike one!

  • Brendanvio on April 28, 2009, 6:02 GMT

    You just can't have one set of rules for one item, and another set for a completely different item.

    Alex Brown summed it up by saying that the Doosra is the most difficult delivery to bowl in cricket without breaching the 15 flex rule. Murali can keep it within those parameters due to his unusually reflexive wrists.

    It's a shame that such a potent delivery is affected by the throwing laws, but we must remember that the rules were already changed to allow the flex certain bowlers deliver with, we can't just change it once more for the sake of one delivery. If they can't bowl it legally, tough luck. Jim Laker and Hugh Tayfield never needed a doosra to be successful, and Murali was already formidable before he developed his.

    Sorry Geoff and Ramiz, but I just don't see the logic behind your comments.

  • deanjones145 on April 28, 2009, 5:45 GMT

    crazy so if i can develop a new ball for fast bowlers, which invloves me bending my elbow at 45 degrees it should be made legal cause they dont have enuff variation?...

    what happen to accuracy, change of pace, drift, heigh variations, crease variations?......

    they should allow deliveries based on them fitting the current rules (within 15 degrees) no just let deliveries people could then bend there arm at 45 degrees to bowl the doosra cause its a legal ball and bend arm for spinners means they can impact more spin on the ball (move the ball faster)

  • sammumbaiindian on April 28, 2009, 5:33 GMT

    Its really disappointing to see such legends of game have such views which can spoil the spirit and talent in cricket . The talent and art is not in bowling a doosra bending your arm at any degree but to bowl a doosra under the permissible limit of 15 degrees.

    Its like removing offside rule from football just because in that way Ronaldo would score more goal.In that case Mr.Ramiz and Geoff Boycott we are also restricting his skills by keeping the rule.

    And tommorow when a 14 year boys explores that he can spin the cricket ball miles when he balls it underarm,recognizing it as a talent legalize it too.

  • Jdevanesan on April 28, 2009, 5:29 GMT

    Not sure why rules have to be changed everytime there is an issue. There already are too many changes which is affecting the concept of level playing field.

    I would have been happy if Rameez had urged ICC to work towards creating Sporting Wickets, Standardization of Cricket Equipment quality etc... More than asking for leagalizing Doosra this looks like requesting ICC to leagalize Pelting as long as it gives some different output.

  • Austy on April 28, 2009, 5:22 GMT

    Regardless of whether or not it is considered an artform it is still illegal and cheating is cheating.

  • robh on April 28, 2009, 4:43 GMT

    Agree with most of the other comments. The current state of affairs is an unenforceable joke, legalising the doosra will just make it more of a joke.

    I can really get some tweak on just a standard offie if I'm allowed to bend my arm, so why not legalise that too? Oh that's right, it is legal, so long as I don't exceed the magic 15 degree mark. But if I REALLY want to give one a tweak (my effort ball) and I happen to flex my arm by 20 degrees for that delivery, and I turn it a mile, and get the crucial wicket - are the umpires in a position to notice or enforce a no-ball? No. With the current state of affairs I doubt whether the square-leg umpire is even watching the bowler's action - after all, what's the point? There's nothing he can do about it except make a report that involves a lot of paperwork only to see the bowler inevitably cleared by the labs because he's being careful not to flex too much.

  • 8ankitj on April 28, 2009, 4:34 GMT

    I support legalising Doosra. After all, whole point of not allowing throw bowling is to prevent bowlers from generating undue pace. These spinners are not generating extra pace with that action, only introducing a new variation, something that's too valuable to lose. We should not stick to the word of law but to its spirit.

  • redneck on April 28, 2009, 4:27 GMT

    yeah and why their at it prehaps we can legalise the baseball pitch and the head high full toss that way it can give the fast bowlers variation on these flat sub continent decks!!! i expect more intellegent comments and suggestions from men of their calliber! i only hope the icc doesnt listen, they already changed the rules to allow for murili and now the legit chucker is the world record holder because of it!

  • bobagorof on April 28, 2009, 2:13 GMT

    It's not the doosra that is illegal, it is that action that certain bowlers use in order to bowl it. I am not in favour of changing rules to accommodate certain bowlers. All players, regardless of batting or bowling style, should play within the same rules. A similar example of this line of thinking would be to change the rules on no-balls, for example to say that 'a fast bowler must have his foot within a yard of the crease', because a couple of bowlers consistently overstep when producing an 'effort ball', while spinners must be behind the lines at all times. Another example would be Mendis - does he classify as an offspinner, or a legspinner? Would he classify for the extra couple of degrees? The 15 degree limit was introduced after scientific analysis of what the human eye can detect. So now we're going to say that chucking is ok as long as the ball spins in a particular direction?

  • wizman on April 28, 2009, 1:37 GMT

    No; you cannot relax the rules for this variation and that variation.

    If you bend your arm more than the rules allow then you are breaking the rules. The rules were changed already so that all bowlers get 15-degrees of elbow straightening so that Muralitharan could be legal. More than that is visible to the naked eye (one of the reasons for changing it apparently) an is therefore throwing.

    Wrist spinners pay a penalty to have a straight arm and use changes in wrist position and spinning fingers to acheive their variations. They usually give up a lot in accuracy and consistency.

    An off-spinner has less optins - so what? They are usually much more accurate, have less wear and tear on their spinning hand / arm / fingers, and currently are getting huge concessions from umpires on LBWs, that leggies do not get. Vettori, for example, doesn't seem to need a doosra to be successful.

    If you can't bowl it within the rules, you can't bowl it in the game.

  • Vijaycr on April 28, 2009, 1:19 GMT

    Change the length of the pitch, length of the boundary, number of overs per bowler based on the bowlers/batsmens height weight fitness level etc etc.

    BTW another excellent idea! why not bring up personolised rules for everyone? Everyone who plays cricket decides what rules apply to him ...that will make it a level field isnt it?...yes thats the way to go...

  • Neetish on April 28, 2009, 1:15 GMT

    I agree...it puts too much pressure on someone just coming onto the international scene. ICC should have a closer look at the art of 'doosra' instead of assessing bowlers indidually. At the moment, it seems anyone who bowls a doosra has to have his action assessed, which doesn't seem right.

  • gauravk on April 28, 2009, 0:16 GMT

    What are these guyz talking about. Have they gone mad? I can bowl at 200 kmph with my arm bent 25 degrees. This is also an art. No one can bowl so fast. So please legalise me also. And as far as murali and bhajji are concerned, they were questioned and then got cleared. If ajmal's action is legal as per rules then he will also be cleared. I think we need not dilute the rules anymore.

  • Ozcricketwriter on April 27, 2009, 21:42 GMT

    Its not a matter of legalising the doosra, it is a matter of throwing versus bowling. We are already far too tolerant, and now have a number of degrees of flexion, as opposed to the naked eye. 15 degrees is a fair amount. If the doosra requires that you break the laws on throwing, then it should be banned. Simple as that. If some bowlers can work out how to bowl it without breaking the laws on throwing, then those bowlers and only those bowlers can bowl the doosra. Ramiz Raja and Geoff Boycott are over complicating the issue and turning it into something that it is not.

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  • Ozcricketwriter on April 27, 2009, 21:42 GMT

    Its not a matter of legalising the doosra, it is a matter of throwing versus bowling. We are already far too tolerant, and now have a number of degrees of flexion, as opposed to the naked eye. 15 degrees is a fair amount. If the doosra requires that you break the laws on throwing, then it should be banned. Simple as that. If some bowlers can work out how to bowl it without breaking the laws on throwing, then those bowlers and only those bowlers can bowl the doosra. Ramiz Raja and Geoff Boycott are over complicating the issue and turning it into something that it is not.

  • gauravk on April 28, 2009, 0:16 GMT

    What are these guyz talking about. Have they gone mad? I can bowl at 200 kmph with my arm bent 25 degrees. This is also an art. No one can bowl so fast. So please legalise me also. And as far as murali and bhajji are concerned, they were questioned and then got cleared. If ajmal's action is legal as per rules then he will also be cleared. I think we need not dilute the rules anymore.

  • Neetish on April 28, 2009, 1:15 GMT

    I agree...it puts too much pressure on someone just coming onto the international scene. ICC should have a closer look at the art of 'doosra' instead of assessing bowlers indidually. At the moment, it seems anyone who bowls a doosra has to have his action assessed, which doesn't seem right.

  • Vijaycr on April 28, 2009, 1:19 GMT

    Change the length of the pitch, length of the boundary, number of overs per bowler based on the bowlers/batsmens height weight fitness level etc etc.

    BTW another excellent idea! why not bring up personolised rules for everyone? Everyone who plays cricket decides what rules apply to him ...that will make it a level field isnt it?...yes thats the way to go...

  • wizman on April 28, 2009, 1:37 GMT

    No; you cannot relax the rules for this variation and that variation.

    If you bend your arm more than the rules allow then you are breaking the rules. The rules were changed already so that all bowlers get 15-degrees of elbow straightening so that Muralitharan could be legal. More than that is visible to the naked eye (one of the reasons for changing it apparently) an is therefore throwing.

    Wrist spinners pay a penalty to have a straight arm and use changes in wrist position and spinning fingers to acheive their variations. They usually give up a lot in accuracy and consistency.

    An off-spinner has less optins - so what? They are usually much more accurate, have less wear and tear on their spinning hand / arm / fingers, and currently are getting huge concessions from umpires on LBWs, that leggies do not get. Vettori, for example, doesn't seem to need a doosra to be successful.

    If you can't bowl it within the rules, you can't bowl it in the game.

  • bobagorof on April 28, 2009, 2:13 GMT

    It's not the doosra that is illegal, it is that action that certain bowlers use in order to bowl it. I am not in favour of changing rules to accommodate certain bowlers. All players, regardless of batting or bowling style, should play within the same rules. A similar example of this line of thinking would be to change the rules on no-balls, for example to say that 'a fast bowler must have his foot within a yard of the crease', because a couple of bowlers consistently overstep when producing an 'effort ball', while spinners must be behind the lines at all times. Another example would be Mendis - does he classify as an offspinner, or a legspinner? Would he classify for the extra couple of degrees? The 15 degree limit was introduced after scientific analysis of what the human eye can detect. So now we're going to say that chucking is ok as long as the ball spins in a particular direction?

  • redneck on April 28, 2009, 4:27 GMT

    yeah and why their at it prehaps we can legalise the baseball pitch and the head high full toss that way it can give the fast bowlers variation on these flat sub continent decks!!! i expect more intellegent comments and suggestions from men of their calliber! i only hope the icc doesnt listen, they already changed the rules to allow for murili and now the legit chucker is the world record holder because of it!

  • 8ankitj on April 28, 2009, 4:34 GMT

    I support legalising Doosra. After all, whole point of not allowing throw bowling is to prevent bowlers from generating undue pace. These spinners are not generating extra pace with that action, only introducing a new variation, something that's too valuable to lose. We should not stick to the word of law but to its spirit.

  • robh on April 28, 2009, 4:43 GMT

    Agree with most of the other comments. The current state of affairs is an unenforceable joke, legalising the doosra will just make it more of a joke.

    I can really get some tweak on just a standard offie if I'm allowed to bend my arm, so why not legalise that too? Oh that's right, it is legal, so long as I don't exceed the magic 15 degree mark. But if I REALLY want to give one a tweak (my effort ball) and I happen to flex my arm by 20 degrees for that delivery, and I turn it a mile, and get the crucial wicket - are the umpires in a position to notice or enforce a no-ball? No. With the current state of affairs I doubt whether the square-leg umpire is even watching the bowler's action - after all, what's the point? There's nothing he can do about it except make a report that involves a lot of paperwork only to see the bowler inevitably cleared by the labs because he's being careful not to flex too much.

  • Austy on April 28, 2009, 5:22 GMT

    Regardless of whether or not it is considered an artform it is still illegal and cheating is cheating.