England v WI, 2nd Test, Trent Bridge, 4th day May 28, 2012

Bresnan stats rival England greats

ESPNcricinfo staff
75

Tim Bresnan collected his first man-of-the-match award in Test cricket after England's series-clinching victory at Trent Bridge extended his 100 per cent record in Tests to 13 and drew attention to a statistical record that bears comparison with the most distinguished allrounders in England's Test history.

As he took the award, he made light of the fact that, for all his unblemished Test record, he remains one of England's most unsung performers. Even while he assembled a match return of 8 for 141 against West Indies, and added a stalwart 39 with the bat at a vital stage of the game for good measure, his selection ahead of Steve Finn was being openly debated.

"Every time you play you always have someone over your shoulder," Bresnan said on Sky TV. "I just want to continue to improve and to make a difference on the field. We have a fantastic crop of seam bowlers and it is great that the competition helps you perform."

One of the most startling facts about Bresnan is that his allround record is now markedly superior - albeit in a much shorter period of time - to England's most celebrated allrounder of the past 25 years, Andrew Flintoff.

Bresnan's Test bowling average is 25.46 compared to Flintoff's 32.78 and his batting average is now 40.22, well above Flintoff's 32.78.

He even measures up statistically against no lesser figure than Ian Botham, who returned a batting average of 33.54 and bowling average of 28.40.

David Saker, England's bowling coach, said: "I have always been really impressed by him every time he plays for us. He always contributes in some way. He is a great person for our group. He is a likeable lad and you know what you are going to get."

Saker acknowledged that England will give serious consideration to resting a pace bowler, most probably James Anderson in the final Test at Edgbaston, which begins next Thursday.

"If there is an opportunity that comes up we may do it," he said. "We are very mindful of it but they are very proud cricketers and they don't want to give up a spot to someone else. It is a massive luxury to have two great bowlers such as Steve Finn and Graham Onions on the sidelines and we also have Chris Tremlett coming back from injury."

Andrew Strauss, who like Marlon Samuels must have been in contention for the man-of-the-match award, also has a 100 per cent record - he has won every home series as England captain.

"We are going to have to take stock and see how the bowlers are feeling, how fresh they are, and then make a decision what the best side is," he said. "There is obviously some benefit in having a look at some other bowlers but that doesn't mean we are going to do it. It depends on how our other bowlers are feeling. Firsts and foremost we want to win the Test match"

Darren Sammy, West Indies' captain, was left to lament the usual failings. "We have to be more focused and put a higher price on our wickets. We did really well to get ourselves back in the game. The bowlers fought back and we have to appreciate what they do.

"It has been affecting us in the past year. We still managed to keep ourselves in the game but we are playing like this and we are not learning. Something has to be done. Coach Gibson has only been here for less than three years. We have been like this for 15 years. The supporters have been patient for a long time."

Comments have now been closed for this article

  • Front_Foot_Lunge on May 31, 2012, 9:52 GMT

    A much better player than Botham, who really is overrated. That guy never really did anything good for England.

  • CricketingStargazer on May 31, 2012, 7:56 GMT

    Well, I guess that the comments a few months ago after the shared series with NZ that Australia had the best young attack in the world may also fall into this category! The trouble is that Australia's young bowlers seem no so much injury prone as injury plagued and the team rarely plays the same attack for consecutive Tests, let alone consecutive series. We are now back to almost the same attack that was comprehensively humilliated in the 2010 Ashes! Everyone lions-up their bowlers, sometimes on the basis of extremely slim evidence. Bresnan's case is interesting that he is effective and, as Randy shows, not respected, which may be what imakes him so effective: you take silly liberties with bowlers who you do not respect, whereas the ones that you fear are played more circumspectly. Certainly, one or two of Tim Bresnan's wickets in the last Test were due to playing the bowler, not the bowling.

  • R_U_4_REAL_NICK on May 30, 2012, 21:49 GMT

    @RandyOZ: every country is the same! Just last year India were claiming Ishant Sharma and Zaheer Khan were the best opening bowling pair in the world after only a few games against one or two teams at home. Shortly after that, I don't think Sharma picked up another wicket ever and was dropped; I like Zaheer Khan but the poor guy spent much of his time limping off the field and subsequently absent injured. Doesn't Australia do the same? Where are all these 'magical quick bowlers' and 'mystery spinners' promised to the world? Dropped like Nathan Hauritz?

  • on May 30, 2012, 11:04 GMT

    Well, I for one rate Bres quite highly... Everyone that needs confirmation of his ability with a greater sample of matches against different sides... well, perhaps you should just watch him bowl? He is one of the best, if not the best old ball bowlers getting around, making him the perfect foil for Anderson and Broad who bring other values to the table. His batting though, I don't think will average anymore than 30 over the long term, but who knows....... Of course Watto is averaging 37 with bat and 28 with the ball, just lacking the 100 wickets. If you bought the qualification down to 50 wickets you'd see quite a few more entries into the list..... Then of course you have Kallis! And of course let's big it up for Jimmy Pattinson, 30 with the bat and 18 with the ball, take that Brezzers!!

  • RandyOZ on May 30, 2012, 9:32 GMT

    The English press really is laughable. After decades in the doldrums they even start talking up players like Bresnan, with only 13 games to his name. They really are embarassing but I suppose if it gets Bresnan and OBE like it did Vaughan he wont be complaining!

  • RandyOZ on May 30, 2012, 9:24 GMT

    Haha no wonder the author hasn't put his name to this article; it is clearly a big joke! @5wombats, @landl - welcome back mates - missed you over the Pakistan series!

  • Blacknwhite on May 30, 2012, 7:53 GMT

    I strongly believe that Bresnan will break records in near future and will overcome Kallis. He has the potential to move forward England as the no. 1 team atleast for a decade. He has played 13 test matches which is huge in numbers. He has done a lot for the English team and we look forward for his more contributions.

  • JG2704 on May 29, 2012, 21:56 GMT

    @AKS286 on (May 29 2012, 04:32 AM GMT) For once I'm going to pretty much agree with you - only I'd just slide everyone up one place in the order so Prior bats where JB is now.

  • JG2704 on May 29, 2012, 21:53 GMT

    @rahulcricket007 on (May 29 2012, 01:48 AM GMT) So by some people'slogic we can say that we only lost in UAE because Bres was not there.

  • JG2704 on May 29, 2012, 21:51 GMT

    @Meety on (May 29 2012, 05:41 AM GMT) Even before the start of this series I was surprised at Bres's stats. He just seems to put in solid performances all the time. I'd also say Broad has come on a hell of a lot in the last year. However I'd say your guys will be much tougher next time too

  • Front_Foot_Lunge on May 31, 2012, 9:52 GMT

    A much better player than Botham, who really is overrated. That guy never really did anything good for England.

  • CricketingStargazer on May 31, 2012, 7:56 GMT

    Well, I guess that the comments a few months ago after the shared series with NZ that Australia had the best young attack in the world may also fall into this category! The trouble is that Australia's young bowlers seem no so much injury prone as injury plagued and the team rarely plays the same attack for consecutive Tests, let alone consecutive series. We are now back to almost the same attack that was comprehensively humilliated in the 2010 Ashes! Everyone lions-up their bowlers, sometimes on the basis of extremely slim evidence. Bresnan's case is interesting that he is effective and, as Randy shows, not respected, which may be what imakes him so effective: you take silly liberties with bowlers who you do not respect, whereas the ones that you fear are played more circumspectly. Certainly, one or two of Tim Bresnan's wickets in the last Test were due to playing the bowler, not the bowling.

  • R_U_4_REAL_NICK on May 30, 2012, 21:49 GMT

    @RandyOZ: every country is the same! Just last year India were claiming Ishant Sharma and Zaheer Khan were the best opening bowling pair in the world after only a few games against one or two teams at home. Shortly after that, I don't think Sharma picked up another wicket ever and was dropped; I like Zaheer Khan but the poor guy spent much of his time limping off the field and subsequently absent injured. Doesn't Australia do the same? Where are all these 'magical quick bowlers' and 'mystery spinners' promised to the world? Dropped like Nathan Hauritz?

  • on May 30, 2012, 11:04 GMT

    Well, I for one rate Bres quite highly... Everyone that needs confirmation of his ability with a greater sample of matches against different sides... well, perhaps you should just watch him bowl? He is one of the best, if not the best old ball bowlers getting around, making him the perfect foil for Anderson and Broad who bring other values to the table. His batting though, I don't think will average anymore than 30 over the long term, but who knows....... Of course Watto is averaging 37 with bat and 28 with the ball, just lacking the 100 wickets. If you bought the qualification down to 50 wickets you'd see quite a few more entries into the list..... Then of course you have Kallis! And of course let's big it up for Jimmy Pattinson, 30 with the bat and 18 with the ball, take that Brezzers!!

  • RandyOZ on May 30, 2012, 9:32 GMT

    The English press really is laughable. After decades in the doldrums they even start talking up players like Bresnan, with only 13 games to his name. They really are embarassing but I suppose if it gets Bresnan and OBE like it did Vaughan he wont be complaining!

  • RandyOZ on May 30, 2012, 9:24 GMT

    Haha no wonder the author hasn't put his name to this article; it is clearly a big joke! @5wombats, @landl - welcome back mates - missed you over the Pakistan series!

  • Blacknwhite on May 30, 2012, 7:53 GMT

    I strongly believe that Bresnan will break records in near future and will overcome Kallis. He has the potential to move forward England as the no. 1 team atleast for a decade. He has played 13 test matches which is huge in numbers. He has done a lot for the English team and we look forward for his more contributions.

  • JG2704 on May 29, 2012, 21:56 GMT

    @AKS286 on (May 29 2012, 04:32 AM GMT) For once I'm going to pretty much agree with you - only I'd just slide everyone up one place in the order so Prior bats where JB is now.

  • JG2704 on May 29, 2012, 21:53 GMT

    @rahulcricket007 on (May 29 2012, 01:48 AM GMT) So by some people'slogic we can say that we only lost in UAE because Bres was not there.

  • JG2704 on May 29, 2012, 21:51 GMT

    @Meety on (May 29 2012, 05:41 AM GMT) Even before the start of this series I was surprised at Bres's stats. He just seems to put in solid performances all the time. I'd also say Broad has come on a hell of a lot in the last year. However I'd say your guys will be much tougher next time too

  • peterhrt on May 29, 2012, 15:09 GMT

    Average runs per wicket in all Tests has been around 30. Of all-rounders with 100 Test wickets, only nine have averaged over 30 with the bat and under 30 with the ball: Rhodes, Botham (England), Noble, Miller (Australia), Goddard, Shaun Pollock (South Africa), Chris Cairns (NZ), Kapil Dev (India) and Imran Khan (Pakistan). None of them averaged 40 as batsmen. All were better bowlers, including Goddard who opened the innings. The likes of Sobers, Kallis, Mankad and Flintoff all paid in excess of thirty runs apiece for their wickets. With 52 wickets so far, Tim Bresnan is halfway towards a unique achievement. In terms of averages (though clearly not runs scored) the nearest to Bresnan is the South African Aubrey Faulkner, who averaged 40 with the bat and claimed 82 wickets at 26 a hundred years ago.

  • brittop on May 29, 2012, 14:29 GMT

    @Andy Plowright: I think the "worst Australian side for two decades" is a myth put about by Aussies. Their results, especially at home, weren't that bad before and after The Ashes. England made them look terrible.

  • CricketingStargazer on May 29, 2012, 13:50 GMT

    Just one stat to point out the invalidity of the comparison with Ian Bothom. Up to the end of 1981, Ian Botham had played at least 2 Tests in 10 series against a great West Indies side, Australia (both their full side and Packerless side), India, Pakistan and New Zealand. Only once in those 10 series did he average over 30 with the ball and only twice over 25 (both against the West Indies). At that point, after 41 Tests, he averaged 32.4 with the bat and 21.2 with the ball. If Tim Bresnan has numbers like that after 41 Tests he will be a "great". Right now, he's a statistical quirk, albeit one who is doing a fine job for his team.

  • landl47 on May 29, 2012, 13:12 GMT

    I think Bresnan's a great team man, but he's been fortunate in the games for which he's been picked. He's only batted 11 times in 13 games, with 2 not outs- an incredible statistic when England have won all 13. It means that England have won the games he's played in by so much that on average he didn't even have to bat once per game, let alone twice! It would be interesting to see if anyone else has ever matched that stat. His bowling is useful, but in pretty much all his tests he's bowled third behind Anderson/Broad or Anderson/Tremlett and the opening bowlers have rarely failed to get two or three wickets. I do think Finn will be essential against SA, so maybe Flower and the selectors will be brave and play Brez at #7.

  • 5wombats on May 29, 2012, 12:26 GMT

    The wombats predict that Bresnan will outperform Kallis with either bat or ball. Probably both. Just when you think he has faded he comes back strong. Good player.

  • Deuce03 on May 29, 2012, 12:15 GMT

    @Vinay Kolhatkar: Comparisons with Broad aren't terribly informative, because Broad has been playing a lot longer and has changed a lot over that time. Since the summer of 2010 he averages under 25 with the ball; it's only because of poor seasons early in his career that his total average is so high. Meanwhile his performance with the bat has tailed off slightly, to the point where he's now a bowler who bats, rather than the mediocre all-rounder he used to be. The Anderson/Broad opening partnership has worked exceptionally well; the competition has to be really over the third seamer's spot.

  • AdrianVanDenStael on May 29, 2012, 12:07 GMT

    Personally I side with those who are a little sceptical of these statistics. It's remarkable that Bresnan keeps finishing on the winning side, but that seems to me more than anything to show that he's mostly played against teams who are struggling, thus giving him opportunities to get good wickets and runs to improve his average in relatively low pressure environments. His performance in the last test was remarkable because it's the first time he's really helped England take the initiative in a match which could have gone either way. Otherwise he's mostly played against weak teams, and/or had a say in a game only after England had already seized the initiative. For instance he had a say at Melbourne in 2010, but only after Anderson, Tremett and Trott had virtually won the game in the first innings. Similarly at Trent Bridge last year it was Broad and Bell, not Bresnan, who really seized the initiative. If Bresnan is to continue this record, he'll certainly face some stiffer challenges.

  • Antomann on May 29, 2012, 12:05 GMT

    Flintoff was overrated. He had a couple of decent series.

  • TheScot on May 29, 2012, 11:55 GMT

    @Selfishkar: Take a bow sir. But you missed Ravindra Jadeja and Harbhajan Singh.

  • dompocock on May 29, 2012, 11:54 GMT

    Ok a bit of fun, comparing Bresnan to Flintoff or Botham at this stage is premature at best. The potential is there, lets see where he is after fify or sixty games if he gets that many.

    As for the man of the match award of course it went to the right man. Samuels was very good, far and away the best batsman for either team in this game but on a pretty flat and placid pitch don't forget. His innings' were class but they only served to keep WI in the game. But in the end WI got hammered, and that was a result of England's bowling. Anderson is taking wickets with the new ball every time but the game was won (or lost from WI perspective) on Sunday evening when Bresnan blew away the middle order, he turned the game and made the difference. Plus batsmen too often get these awards, long live the fast bowler.

  • on May 29, 2012, 11:38 GMT

    @cricketingStargazer. Bresnan's rise is complimentary both to how far he has come as a cricketer mentally and physically, and to the quality of coach employed by In the bowling department, we've had Messrs Donald, Gibson, and Saker, and the performance of the bowlers through that time has been exemplary. I freely admit that I didn't think Big Bres would come through in Test cricket and there is still this thought that he as an individual has yet to be tested against a great team in form. I think he will do well in India. His height and ability to bowl the heavy ball will surprise a few. In Bangladesh he found reverse swing and this should be a factor in India too.

  • on May 29, 2012, 11:33 GMT

    @YorkshirePudding. Dude, I'm human, I'm natural, and I wouldn't have given Bresnan the MOM award in a million years. 8 wickets against a rubbish batting lineup and a few runs against an inexperienced attack versus a fine century and an unbeaten half century against the top Test side in the world. It's perfectly reasonable for a MOM award to be for a player on a losing team. Often you'll see goalkeepers of losing sides being heralded as the MOM.

  • exiledtyke on May 29, 2012, 11:25 GMT

    @subbass asked: "Much as I expect Bresnans figures to not remain so impressive you can look at it another way. How well did the other bowlers do in the same games Bresnan has played in ?"

    The results are really quite telling. The main wicket takers in these tests have been:

    Bresnan 52 @ 25.46 Anderson 55 @ 24.12 (career 30.05) Broad 46 @ 22.50 (career 30.42) Swann 54 @ 29.40 (career 28.12)

    Given that Broad & Anderson have done so much better than their career averages in these games to me implies that the batting has been below par, and/or the conditions favourable for seam bowling.

  • on May 29, 2012, 11:24 GMT

    AndrewFlintof was better than tim bres statistical figure is less than him but he was much better than him thts for sure playing few test matches cant tell you, but western media is 2 clever they praise thier player to impress and 2 presurised other teams

  • CricketingStargazer on May 29, 2012, 10:30 GMT

    It is remarkable to be having this discussion. Before the 2010/11 Ashes Jon Agnew weighed-up Tim Bresnan's contributions from the summer 2010 series and concluded that he could not see how he would take a wicket in Australia. It was a verdict that very ffew people disputed at the time. Yet, dispite the suggestion that he was not worth his place in the touring party and was lucky to be picked, it was Tim Bresnan who came in to the side when Steve Finn was dropped and who proved to be a stunningly effective replacement. Few people seem to rate him highly, but he has proved time and time again to be remarkably effective. There also seems to be a feeling that he will do well in India (Indian fans may disagree with that one). Long may opposing sides underrate him to their cost. Successful sides can sometimes be built from players whose whole is far greater than the sum of the individuals.

  • on May 29, 2012, 10:28 GMT

    Bresnan's bowling stats are helped by the fact he has played mostly in Aus & England and not on the dull SL/ Indian pitches, where only Jimmy A is effective. Finn is obviously a bigger threat with the ball. Instead of comparing Bresnan with Finn, he should be compared with Broad. SB has a batting avg of 28 and a bowling avg of 31 and does not reverse swing. In SL, Finn got the new ball to share with Jimmy, ahead of Brezzy. That tells you who the captain favours as a bowler.

  • YorkshirePudding on May 29, 2012, 10:03 GMT

    @Andy Plowright, I agree about comparing Bresnan to anyone at the moment as by the end its generally evened out (Law of Large numbers). On the Man Of the match award it generally goes to the Highest Run Scorer or Wicket taker, So it was going to be between Bresnan and Samuals, as with all things when theres an arguable decision it generally goes to the player on the winning team, not every time but in most cases, you also have to consider this is generally selected by Panel making up Comentators, and people selected by the Sponsor, which will predominately have a home team bias, this isnt just a problem in England every home awards commitee will favour the home team, its human nature.

  • SDHM on May 29, 2012, 9:52 GMT

    I agree about the Bresnan statistics - they're an interesting oddity at the moment, not a lot more. Batting at 8 has given him a chance to get quite a few not outs to get his batting average up and he's played a couple of weak batting line-ups, but I'd also say you could balance that out slightly by saying he's also bowled on plenty of flat pitches. He'd still have been my man of the match though - those championing Samuels would do well to remember the Dave Warner/Doug Bracewell argument over the winter; yes Samuels batted well, but did he win his team the game? Strauss scored virtually as many runs as Samuels and no one's saying he should have been MoM, quite rightly. In fact, I've been quite pleased to see it's gone to bowlers in both games!

  • Herbet on May 29, 2012, 9:07 GMT

    I agree that Bresnan is not as good as his stats suggest. His batting is decent, helped by the fact that he has a good temprament and doesn't try to slog but instead bats properly, but you would never bat him at 6. His bowling is excellent, it doesn't look as flashy as some others, but is just as effective. Flintoff was overrated. His batting was never 'proper', you could never rely on him to defend. His bowling took ages to come to fruition, but was no better than Bresnan's other than maybe steeper bounce. But Bresnan has better use of reverse swing. Botham was utterly brilliant at his best, both with the bat and the ball. His bowling alone would grant him legendary status, in his early days his mastery of swing was as good as Anderson's is now. But due to his lack of discipline re his lifestyle he declinded quickly and for the last 5 or more years of his career was a shadow of his early days. How long was Gilchrist's winning streak at the start of his career?

  • big_al_81 on May 29, 2012, 8:59 GMT

    This is an exciting time for English cricket. Why? Not because we're the best side in the world ever, not because we are even convincingly the best side in the world by much right now, but because for the first time in decades we've got a side who are good enough to worry everyone else in the world into commenting on stories like this! It's a story on Tim Bresnan for goodness sake, and everyone's riled! Hooray. It just means we have earned enough respect to be worth commenting on. Thanks for the compliment everyone. And of course you're right, he's only played a few tests but they were away as well as at home and you can't do much more than win them all and have extremely respectable averages for batting and bowling. Too early to judge long term prospects but he's done everything asked and a bit more. Oh, and no-one suggested he was one of the world greats apart from a poster here who I'm pretty sure is just trying to wind you all up with stats...

  • VillageBlacksmith on May 29, 2012, 8:16 GMT

    @APlowright I agree with everything u say esp re Brezza as i would have had Finn in everyday since Brisi, but I find it hard to agree with Marlon not getting the MOM ''a travesty'', it was a batsman's paradise and thus I think it is fair it went to a bowler who got 8/141 and who changed the course of the game for ultimately the winning side, just a shame it wasn't Finn

  • Brenton1 on May 29, 2012, 8:03 GMT

    If Bresnan want to maintain his unbeaten record he needs to miss the SA series. I dont see a 3-0 scoreline to any team. More than likely 2-1. SA to win first, followed by an Eng retaliation and a hard fought 3rd test.

  • Meety on May 29, 2012, 5:41 GMT

    @jg2704 - when your mob lined up to play us in the 10/11 Ashes, I liked our chances against Anderson, Broad, Finn & Swann. I did not think that was a line up that could/would win the Ashes in Oz. I was sort of right, it was Anderson, Tremlett, Bresnan & swann that won it. Ever since then, I have been an admirer of Bresnan, (& Tremlett). He reminds me a bit of Stuey Clark of Oz, just somehow, almost innocuously keeps collecting wickets (& test victories). After the Ashes I noted he was better than Flintoff - to which a few staunch Flintoff fans scoffed at. Not sure that statistically he'll remain so good, but I don't see him slackening off in the short run. He is going to go very close to Gilchrest's debut winning streak!

  • Meety on May 29, 2012, 5:34 GMT

    @rahulcricket007 - ye of the constant capslock, your allrounders list is woeful as it does not include arguably the best allrounder of all time - Keith Miller.

  • anver777 on May 29, 2012, 4:45 GMT

    Congrats !! for MOM award. Lucky Charm "Bresnan" now has 13 wins out of 13 test, That's Great !!!! but the real test will be against SA .....

  • AKS286 on May 29, 2012, 4:41 GMT

    What fans will do if gayle comes and team will loose again as usual.? now new excuse bring sarwan, taylor, pollard, bravo, russell. what if all will join and again the WI will taste defeat.WICB is responsible hahahaha. naraine mystery sinks kkr in the final and bravo sinks cSk in the fianal of the IPL.

  • AKS286 on May 29, 2012, 4:32 GMT

    if the practice match is of 4 day against Leicester then WI will again loose that match. WI is not eligible for test cric. bring irish, dutch & namibia in the place of WI. @ those fans who comment upon me that bresnan as a allrounder foolishness. where are those? bresnan must bats in the position of bairstow and bring onion/finn in the position of bresnan.

  • on May 29, 2012, 3:29 GMT

    Oh please!!! Shane Watson's all round stats are compareable to Bresnan's - and over a longer period of time, yet you do not hear even the most bullish Aussie supporters making claims that Watson is the greatest allrounder since sliced bread. All these figures bear out are, a/ Bresnan has had a very short test career that has coincided with Englands best cricket, and, b/ Flintoff was rather overrated. Botham was sensational, but played on for about three years too long that diluted his figures, same with Keith Miller. Bresnan is not in the same league as those two, but should end up with a compareable record to Flintoff.

  • Greatest_Game on May 29, 2012, 3:25 GMT

    @ Andy Plowright. YES - your comment is spot on. It is a travesty that Samuels did not get the MOM award. So many here claim that ENG has the most balanced, disciplined, and all round best bowling attack "in the World." (For some reason they love the phrase "in the World.") Well Samuels scored 193 runs, ave 96.5 against "the best bowling in the world," which could not dismiss him twice! That seems more worthy of MOM than a bowler who managed 8/141 against a team that is basically tied as the 2nd worst test team "in the World!" (excl Bang & Zim of course.) AND, Samuels had better bowling SR & econ than Bresnan - 3/37 off 74 balls = SR of 24.33 & econ of 3 (against the number 1 team "in the World!") And Bresnan: SR 33 & econ 3.2 (against the team that is…well…just not quite the "worst in the World" of test teams.) If this match had been at Lords, Samuals' name would have been on the board, but Bresnan, not worthy of the honor!

  • pauln2 on May 29, 2012, 3:15 GMT

    You can make comparisons 'prove' whatever you like by including this and omitting that, but the thing about Bresnan that I really admire is his total dedication to the cause. First saw him in the Ashes in Aussie 18 months ago, and he hasn't stopped impressing since. He always seems to be chipping in whenever needed, and he'd be in my team any day. Pleased he finally won a MOTM.

  • mikey76 on May 29, 2012, 3:04 GMT

    @BKamalJeet: How are you going to whitewash us? With Sharma who takes a wicket every six months or R Ashwin, the worst spinner to represent India in 50 years. Now the wall has gone, the batting looks a bit weak. I'd be more worried than us matey

  • dsig3 on May 29, 2012, 2:56 GMT

    Bresnan has some nice stats but I dont know if he will keep them. To compare him to Flintoff and Botham is going to end in tears. Flintoff in his prime was an absolute beast and Botham is still incomparable as far as English cricket goes. Bresnan is a good player but will struggle to hold his place if he has a few bad games.

  • maddinson on May 29, 2012, 2:28 GMT

    England may not be good enough in Subcontinent but to expect from Indian team to white wash this England team at their backyard can only be a dream.

  • rahulcricket007 on May 29, 2012, 2:01 GMT

    @PUNCHDRUNKHUNTER . man are you serious . keeping the great imran khan & sir hadlee behind bresnan who has only played in 13 tests is the joke of century . bresnan should not be even included in the list . my list IS . 1 . KALLIS 2 . SOBERS 3. IMRAN KHAN 4 . IAN BOTHAM 5. SIR HADLEE. 6 . KAPIL DEV 7. ANDREW FLINTOFF 8. SHANE WATSON 9 . CHRIS CAIRNS 10.SHAKIB AL HASAN .

  • rahulcricket007 on May 29, 2012, 1:48 GMT

    SERUIUOSLY MAN , TIM BRESNAN MAY HAS 100 % WIN RECORD BUT IT ALSO TRUE THAT HE MISSED THE DEFEATS OF ENGLAND IN PAST YEARS , LIKE HE WAS NOT SELECTED IN TEAM FOR THE 4 TESTS WHICH ENG LOSE IN SL & UAE , WAS NOT IN THE TEAM FOR THE PERTH WHICH WAS THE ONLY DEFEAT IN ENG VICTORIOUS ASHES , WAS NOT IN THE TEAM WHEN PAK DEFEATED THEM IN A MATCH IN 2010 .

  • rahulcricket007 on May 29, 2012, 1:44 GMT

    NOTHING AGAINST TIM BRESNAN , BUT TO BE HONEST MAN OF THE MATCH SHOULD HAVE BEEN GIVEN TO MARLON SAMUELS , HE WAS THE ONLY ROCK PILLAR FOR WI IN BOTH INNINGS WITH NO SUPPORT FROM THE OTHER END . HE ALSO PICKED 2 WKTS .

  • MattyP1979 on May 29, 2012, 1:23 GMT

    SA are going to tough its true but I still see us coming out on top. After that its an easy ride against IND, where we will finally put to bed our sub-cont jinx. We are at least not going to lose the series there unless IND get 20 run outs that is.

  • Selfishkar on May 29, 2012, 1:16 GMT

    I would rate Agarkar ahead on Bresnan.

  • Patchmaster on May 29, 2012, 0:17 GMT

    As a fellow Yorkshireman, it's great to see Bresnan giving his heart and soul to ENG. He really is becoming a great all rounder, if he works on his batting a bit more, he could have a long test career at Number 7. Brilliant Bressy !

  • BKamalJeet on May 28, 2012, 23:40 GMT

    Champions only at home. Reality awaits when this team visits India for yet another whitewash this

  • MattyP1979 on May 28, 2012, 23:29 GMT

    Bresnan's stats may be a little better than the player but such is true of a few players right now. Aussies are crowing over a few quicks that got wickets against no-bodies on friendly services, and much has been made about an uncapped one day spinner who plays on dustbowls that could of single handly won WI this series.

  • ampshare on May 28, 2012, 22:54 GMT

    Botham's first 200 wickets were at at cost of about 21 so not much comparison there

  • on May 28, 2012, 22:45 GMT

    @CricketingStargazer. Good to see a few old BBC names out there! Such a shame the Beeb axed most of the online cricket debate...

    @Subbass. Even taking wickets can distort statistics. Did Bresnan really bowl better than Anderson in this Test? Did Broad really bowl better than Anderson in the First Test? To my mind, no would be the response to both but statistically they both did better than Jimmy A. Thus far, James Anderson has been absolutely outstanding, far and away the best bowler out there, and hasn't got the rewards due to him. He's bowling just as well as he did against India. The drawback is that the Windies top order aren't good enough to nick it unlike the Indians last year!

  • Truemans_Ghost on May 28, 2012, 22:43 GMT

    Much though I admire Bressie, the comparisons don't quite work. Beefy's stats are diluted by his long decline, and both Beefy and Freddie's career stat's don't reflect how good they were at their peak (a brief one for Flintoff, a longer one for Botham) Bressie's batting stats at least are inflated by the brevity of his career. I think over a long career his stats will settle down to thirtyish with both bat and ball, which is superb, but his peaks won't be as high as either of the other two.

  • TontonZolaMoukoko on May 28, 2012, 22:19 GMT

    Bresnan's figures may be better than Freddie and Beefy but they lag behind Anthony McGrath's. Scored his runs at 40 and took his wickets at 14, Bresnan's not even the best all-rounder from Yorkshire, never mind England.

  • Sadiqahmed on May 28, 2012, 22:07 GMT

    The WI management do not seem go have any pride. They prefer to let their team get mauled successively by foreign teams rather than make amends and get their best players into the team. WI are not in the best of forms as compared with their glorious history but they still have much more power than the limping performance of their present team. With the batting prowess of Chris Gayle, Kieron Pollard, Dwayne Bravo, and Sarwan there is absolutely no reason to continue with the top 4 limping batsmen of the present team who have failed time and again to fire. On the bowling side why is the superb Narine not playing? The political forces in WI must intervene to save the national pride and restore the health of the national team. Sadiq Ahmed

  • 5wombats on May 28, 2012, 21:48 GMT

    @JG2704 - Ind A - !? are you sure? Now you've done it. You've mentioned Ind.

  • tommyhawk on May 28, 2012, 21:39 GMT

    I think WI needs to hear from Desmond Haynes the batting coach. This batting has been failing too long - although Sammy's has been improving.Is Haynes doing something wrong or the players are not listening?

  • CricketingStargazer on May 28, 2012, 21:38 GMT

    JG, I know. I was one of them. Nothing like this was on show for the first 6 days of the series. And I speculated that perhaps Tim B. had read the article about his first day performance and got a bit riled by it. Is this really the same bowler who took 2-0-25-0 in that infamous ODI chase by Sri Lanka?

  • subbass on May 28, 2012, 21:27 GMT

    Much as I expect Bresnans figures to not remain so impressive you can look at it another way. How well did the other bowlers do in the same games Bresnan has played in ? I don't have the exact stats to hand, but I'm pretty sure they were not any better than Bresnans, which indicates he is indeed a fine player. Sure we will know more once he has played SA and India but over time I don't see a massive change although I'd be surprised if they stayed quite so good. Still, he can only bowl and bat against what he has in front of him and so far he has been excellent. Mind you I hope people continue to underestimate him as I think it probably helps him !

    Well done Brezzy lad !

  • demon_bowler on May 28, 2012, 21:25 GMT

    You do realize that, given the small sample, such statistics are utterly meaningless? Apparently not.

  • 2.14istherunrate on May 28, 2012, 21:13 GMT

    Bresnan's bowling was just the ticket for that wicket. So long as he does that it will be hard to leave him out whoever is waiting in the wings. His batting is always likely to do okay as he blocks the good ones and hits the bad one's. And of course he is quite level headed which is an advantage. Finally he seems to appear to be lucky in as much as he only plays on winning sides for England...so far!

  • Front-Foot-Lunge on May 28, 2012, 21:06 GMT

    Ever since he started in the team, the Yorkshire lad Bresnan has shown his excellent array of skills and pace. Even though, since having his shoulder surgery a few months back, he's lost a bit of nip but is still on the mend and no doubt needs game experience. With everyone in the England team performing so well, it's unbelievable how Steven Finn cannot get in, he would easily walk into any team in the world right now. England are building in confidence and strength every time they play. And they are bursting with players able to stand up and win the game.

  • JG2704 on May 28, 2012, 21:01 GMT

    Think it's funny that many of us were saying - even I was half thinking this - that Finn should have played ahead of Bresnan after an ineffective 1st day and Bres ends up getting man of the match. Agree that the stats can be misleading and don't tell the whole picture but I would say Bres is a very reliable performer. Obviously SA and then Ind A will tell us more either way

  • on May 28, 2012, 20:45 GMT

    For me, I feel England could take advantage of their position in the series to alter the structure of their side. Bairstow has done nothing wrong yet but England have enough batting without him (and the rest of the top order will have to knuckle down).

    Playing another seamer would mean England can keep the pressure on the West indies batsmen ( Sammy and Samuels got runs when the ball was old), and without resting Jimmy Anderson, another seamer would potentially reduce his workload by 25%.

    Bresnan's figures are at this stage an anomaly. If he ends up a better all rounder than Imran, Hadlee and Kallis, something is very very wrong!

  • on May 28, 2012, 20:14 GMT

    + Gayle, Sarwan, Bravo, Taylor and Narine = very good WI side

  • CricketingStargazer on May 28, 2012, 19:53 GMT

    I agree with Andy Plowright. This is awful use of statistics. He has only played 13 Tests and he missed all the defeats last winter. Until he has 20-25 Tests against a wider range of opponents Tim Bresnan's numbers are an interesting anecdote, not a tale in themselves. The two points of comparison are also invalid: Andrew Flintoff's figures were massively skewed by his early years when he averaged 50+ with the ball, which never allowed him to get his career average down to around 30. Ian Botham's final figures were massively weighted by his last 5 years, when he had ceased to be a strike bowler and rarely was worth a place in the side as a bowler alone.

  • on May 28, 2012, 19:24 GMT

    Statistics are utterly useless without context. Bresnan has played an incredibly large amount of useless teams in his Test career. Out of 13 Tests, 7 have been against West Indies and Bangladesh. Even trying to make the case for his stats measuring up against Flintoff and Botham is inane. Bresnan hasn't yet played against a top team who are in form. He's had two minnows in Bangladesh and the Windies, played against the worst Australian side for two decades in Australia, and got a tired and feeble Indian side to bowl against. South Africa at home and India away to come, then you can really start judging him against the best.

    A travesty that Marlon Samuels didn't get the Man of the Match award.

  • bobmartin on May 28, 2012, 19:01 GMT

    Those last two sentences of Sammy's "We have been like this for 15 years. The supporters have been patient for a long time." just about sums it up.. and judging by the last two tests, those supporters have an even longer wait ahead of them. The team play well in parts, but somehow seem unable to grab the initiative when the opportunity presents itself. Drafting in some old hands, as some are advocating, if it achieves anything, will simply be papering over the cracks, because those guys don't have much playing time left and in the not too distant future will have to be replaced anyway. But clearly something has to be done and fairly quickly. If not the downward slide will only continue, because lack of success is going to escalate the growing lack of interest amongst the younger generation to aspire to play the game. Nothing breeds interest like success.

  • PunchDrunkPunter on May 28, 2012, 17:59 GMT

    Greatest all-rounders of all time: 1. Kallis, 2. Sobers, 3. Bresnan, 4. Imran Khan, 5. Hadlee.

  • Smithie on May 28, 2012, 17:14 GMT

    Look at the benefits of DRS during this match. Will Giles Clarke put the hard word on Srinivasan to agree to its use for the England India series? Now his pockets are bulging with IPL lolly he can afford the full technology!

  • whatawicket on May 28, 2012, 17:03 GMT

    i think when it comes down to it england should always pick what they consider their strongest team. with a longer time between 2nd and 3rd tests for rest. looking at the bigger picture you dont want just to be happy with a series win the points are valuable to keep the number 1 position.

  • mikey76 on May 28, 2012, 16:58 GMT

    The West Indies aren't far away from becoming a pretty good side. The core of young players they have are learning all the time. If the WICB can get their act together and get Gayle and Sarwan back at the top of the order and then have Dwayne Bravo and Jerome Taylor joining the ranks this will be a good side. Chanderpaul still has plenty left in the tank and Samuels seems to have turned a corner and accepts he is one of the senior players now. They need to find a wicketkeeper who can score runs and to stick with Bishoo, who is the most likely match winning spinner in the caribbean. Another professional performance by England, but still plenty of room for improvement. The likes of Cook, Prior and Swann have yet to really catch fire.

  • Imran.Bush on May 28, 2012, 16:54 GMT

    Come on Sammy! it's strange that you are now realizing that we have been like this for the past 15 years. Only a few tests ago you were hailing coach Gibson. Perhaps, it's not the coach really, but the system.

  • SDHM on May 28, 2012, 16:53 GMT

    If Anderson is fully fit, he plays - the last time we played without him, against Sri Lanka at Lord's, we looked directionless. Broad needs more overs in him - he's still not in great rhythm, evidenced by the fact he's bowling about 7 or 8mph slower than his usual average pace. He's been down below 80 quite a lot, when he's usually up much closer to 90mph. And you can't really leave out Bresnan after this can you, despite what I was saying before the Test! The physio was out to look at Anderson a lot though, so that suggests to me he might have a niggling injury and a rest would be welcomed in that case. Finn comes in for me then, but ONLY if Anderson isn't fully fit.

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  • SDHM on May 28, 2012, 16:53 GMT

    If Anderson is fully fit, he plays - the last time we played without him, against Sri Lanka at Lord's, we looked directionless. Broad needs more overs in him - he's still not in great rhythm, evidenced by the fact he's bowling about 7 or 8mph slower than his usual average pace. He's been down below 80 quite a lot, when he's usually up much closer to 90mph. And you can't really leave out Bresnan after this can you, despite what I was saying before the Test! The physio was out to look at Anderson a lot though, so that suggests to me he might have a niggling injury and a rest would be welcomed in that case. Finn comes in for me then, but ONLY if Anderson isn't fully fit.

  • Imran.Bush on May 28, 2012, 16:54 GMT

    Come on Sammy! it's strange that you are now realizing that we have been like this for the past 15 years. Only a few tests ago you were hailing coach Gibson. Perhaps, it's not the coach really, but the system.

  • mikey76 on May 28, 2012, 16:58 GMT

    The West Indies aren't far away from becoming a pretty good side. The core of young players they have are learning all the time. If the WICB can get their act together and get Gayle and Sarwan back at the top of the order and then have Dwayne Bravo and Jerome Taylor joining the ranks this will be a good side. Chanderpaul still has plenty left in the tank and Samuels seems to have turned a corner and accepts he is one of the senior players now. They need to find a wicketkeeper who can score runs and to stick with Bishoo, who is the most likely match winning spinner in the caribbean. Another professional performance by England, but still plenty of room for improvement. The likes of Cook, Prior and Swann have yet to really catch fire.

  • whatawicket on May 28, 2012, 17:03 GMT

    i think when it comes down to it england should always pick what they consider their strongest team. with a longer time between 2nd and 3rd tests for rest. looking at the bigger picture you dont want just to be happy with a series win the points are valuable to keep the number 1 position.

  • Smithie on May 28, 2012, 17:14 GMT

    Look at the benefits of DRS during this match. Will Giles Clarke put the hard word on Srinivasan to agree to its use for the England India series? Now his pockets are bulging with IPL lolly he can afford the full technology!

  • PunchDrunkPunter on May 28, 2012, 17:59 GMT

    Greatest all-rounders of all time: 1. Kallis, 2. Sobers, 3. Bresnan, 4. Imran Khan, 5. Hadlee.

  • bobmartin on May 28, 2012, 19:01 GMT

    Those last two sentences of Sammy's "We have been like this for 15 years. The supporters have been patient for a long time." just about sums it up.. and judging by the last two tests, those supporters have an even longer wait ahead of them. The team play well in parts, but somehow seem unable to grab the initiative when the opportunity presents itself. Drafting in some old hands, as some are advocating, if it achieves anything, will simply be papering over the cracks, because those guys don't have much playing time left and in the not too distant future will have to be replaced anyway. But clearly something has to be done and fairly quickly. If not the downward slide will only continue, because lack of success is going to escalate the growing lack of interest amongst the younger generation to aspire to play the game. Nothing breeds interest like success.

  • on May 28, 2012, 19:24 GMT

    Statistics are utterly useless without context. Bresnan has played an incredibly large amount of useless teams in his Test career. Out of 13 Tests, 7 have been against West Indies and Bangladesh. Even trying to make the case for his stats measuring up against Flintoff and Botham is inane. Bresnan hasn't yet played against a top team who are in form. He's had two minnows in Bangladesh and the Windies, played against the worst Australian side for two decades in Australia, and got a tired and feeble Indian side to bowl against. South Africa at home and India away to come, then you can really start judging him against the best.

    A travesty that Marlon Samuels didn't get the Man of the Match award.

  • CricketingStargazer on May 28, 2012, 19:53 GMT

    I agree with Andy Plowright. This is awful use of statistics. He has only played 13 Tests and he missed all the defeats last winter. Until he has 20-25 Tests against a wider range of opponents Tim Bresnan's numbers are an interesting anecdote, not a tale in themselves. The two points of comparison are also invalid: Andrew Flintoff's figures were massively skewed by his early years when he averaged 50+ with the ball, which never allowed him to get his career average down to around 30. Ian Botham's final figures were massively weighted by his last 5 years, when he had ceased to be a strike bowler and rarely was worth a place in the side as a bowler alone.

  • on May 28, 2012, 20:14 GMT

    + Gayle, Sarwan, Bravo, Taylor and Narine = very good WI side